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Alchemy Forum 0301-0350

From January 25th 1996, the Alchemy forum was restructured and the messages were sequentially numbered. This is an unedited extract of messages 301-350.
Go to next 50 messages . Back to forum archive.


Sun Feb 25 15:45:23 1996
Subject: 0301 FRENCH: créer un serveur français

Date: Sat, 24 Feb 1996 22:39:10 +0100
From: chaslin

Chres frères d'Héliopolis,
Je ne sais combien vous êtes, étudiants, curieux, adeptes peut-être à
rechercher sur l'Internet _crée au fond pour des chercheurs, à l'origine,
dont les plus tenaces, humbles et patients d'entre nous méritent bien le
qualificatif_ quelque lumière, justification, ou juste le réconfort, aux
moments, bien réguliers et intenses, où viennent les doutes et le
découragement, ou bien ces instants où, pour se délasser sans détendre l'arc
de la concentration, l'on vient observer les cheminements des autres. On
peut critiquer la science moderne et certaines de ses émanations malsaines,
en tout cas on ne peut que louer le principe de l'Internet.
De tous temps les grands Adeptes ont cherché à communiquer leur savoir, même
parfois à des mécréants , pour entretenir l'idée que notre Art n'est point
une chimère.
Il serait bon que les frères français, dont la contribution historique est
immmense et indéniable, et dont l'activité est toujours soutenue, se
retrouvent, en complément de ce site si bien documenté, sur un terrain plus
familier, compte tenu premièrement des difficultés CABBALISITIQUES
suppléméntaires imposées par la traduction anglaise, d'autre part pour
pouvoir se retrouver physiquement plus aisément, dans le cas où une
collaboration pratique serait envisagée.
C'est pourquoi nous étudions la possibilité d'ouvrir un site Web français
dédié à l'alchimie, sous la direction d'un Adepte très érudit, dont le rôle
se bornerait toutefois à concentrer les informations et à guider ceux des
étudiants qui se montreraient à la fois les plus sincères et les plus
déireux de s'informer. A la manière du serveur de Mr McLean, ce site
français serait une collecte d'éléments Bilbliographiques en langue
française toutefois, et de travaux pratiques, ce que n'assure pas encore le
site écossais, avec éventuellement un forum.
Il nous faut pour cela connaitre le potentiel humain présent sur les résaux.
Si donc vous pourriez être intéressè(e) par une telle création, envoyez un
simple courrier à Monsieur Luca Finnel, à l'adresse E-mail:
chaslin@world-net.sct.fr
Bien à vous tous,
Luca Finnel


Sun Feb 25 15:45:31 1996
Subject: 0302 Alchemy and Christianity

From: Clinton R. Armitage
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 1996 21:55:50 -0500


A friend, who was publicly known as a conscious
medium and whom I knew to be an adept was asked to give
a talk to some people who ,individually, were acclaimed
as proficient in the realm of the paranormal-i.e. seeing
auras, burning holes through walls, trance mediumship
and that sort of thing. The subject matter of the talk was
to be of his own choice. The sponsor of the meeting was a
socially prominent lady who personally knew him.

After a brief introduction my friend sat in a chair
facing the group and smoked a corncob pipe containing
ordinary smoking tobacco. For a period of two hours
there was complete silence, for the most part, with an
occasional utterance of one of the following
words/phrases--God is Love, the Living Christ and Love.

When my friend ended the session one young lady looked
at her watch and exclaimed - Impossible! It had seemed
like only minutes.

An older man who exhibited a personality trait in the
realm of positivity which others found annoying asked
him in a rather affronted stance why he had said such
and such ( it seemed to be exactly what the older man
needed to know). The others quickly responded that my friend
did not say that nor anything like it. The man stared in
utter disbelief.

Another lady asked about the beam of green
light she saw coming in through the window. He pointed
to the oak tree and said that he had asked the tree for
energy whereupon several of the ladies verbally attacked
the lady --who presumably could burn holes through walls
--for attempting to disrupt the meeting with her
negativity. The sponsor apologized for having invited
the lady in the first place. It also turned out that whenever
my friend later saw this lady ( the hole burner ) the
expression of guilt coupled with hatred lingered and she
always insisted on being the one to deliver the invocation
at subsequent meetings.

Such is the price of adeptship in the outer world.

What does this have to do with Alchemy? Perhaps some
things are happening when the dedicated alchemist looks
into his crucible that most of us know not of? All is
Energy. Energy always exists, it simply changes form.

Alchemy and Christianity? The greatest mystery of all
time- How the Christ resides within the heart.


Sun Feb 25 15:45:41 1996
Subject: 0303 Stone to Stone

From: Michel Martineau
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 1996 15:12:54 -0500


At 10:46 AM 2/24/96 +0000, you wrote:
>From: Petra Gottlieb
>Date: Sat, 24 Feb 1996 11:38:54 +1100
>
>
>Dear Lapis (Beat Kummenacher),
>
>In full admiration I read your last post. I was intrigued and felt teased
>and very annoyed because I still wasn't able to put my hands on the matters.
>Before your time I once sang to the forum a German song straight out of
>Goethe's Faust I, Gretchen's prison song, which I translated in this manner:
>
>My mother, the slut (Morality corrupted into Immorality)
>who murdered me,
>My father, the villian (Intellect gone astray in misconceptions,
>misinterpretations, and conceipt)
>who devoured me!
>My sister, the "little" one (the "big" one has yet to be borne)
>picked up the bones (that which remains after the carnibal feast)
>at a cool surrounding. (grave, underground)
>Then I became a beautiful little forrest bird; (Spirit)
>Fly away! Fly away! (volatile substance without body)
>
>And then I said: There you have your "prima materia", and that this concept
>reminded me of a "Russian Doll" . If you take off the first (outer) layer,
>in the above case because of corruption, you find there is another inside,
>and on opening that one, there is another, and another...until you come to
>the core, which is the "real" human being (potentially and in desperate need
>of development and re-generation).



When I discover an ego in myself, I see another one, and another one, the observer observe the observer, etc


Mon Feb 26 09:12:57 1996
Subject: 0304 friars

From: WTHEISEN
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 1996 18:32:51 -0600 (CST)



Dear Anastasy,
Can you tell me what it was precisely about the spirituality of the
friars that appealed to the merchants? I think that the "involvement"
of Albert and Thomas with alchemy is problematical according to
those who have studied the texts attributed to them. Both of
course talked about alchemy, but did they get beyond that?


Mon Feb 26 09:13:08 1996
Subject: 0305 FRENCH: créer un serveur

From: Michel Martineau
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 1996 20:03:24 -0500


SALUT LUCA FINNEL, on peut parler ou discuter en attendant de créer un site.

Michel Martineau
jhsmarti@riq.qc.ca



Mon Feb 26 09:13:18 1996
Subject: 0306 David Hudsons White Powder Gold

Date: Sun, 25 Feb 96 22:55 MST
From: simeon


2/25/96
In response to the many requests I saw on the forum under this topic
heading. There is an excellent location with 12 pages of David Hudsons story
at http://www.teleport.com/~boydroid/gold.htm This document has some of
the scientific info associated with David Hudsons work also. I know there is
another site with about 33 pages of info but have not been able to locate it
at this point.

On another note for anyone interested: We are operating the 'Crest in the
Stone' Sacred Inner Mystery School out of Crestone, Colorado. We have been
in contact with the Choctaw Native American woman 'Nellie' who owns the land
that the naturally occuring 'Prima Matra' substance is being taken from, as
well as many of the other main 'players' in this scenario. We currently have
small quantities available to true spiritual seekers. There are six
different colors, two herbs (the ones that healed the HIV patient) and
another herbal preparation called 'Blue Water' available. There are several
people marketing the powders under a couple different names such as Etherium
and Isis White Powder Gold. We have recently produced a newsletter called
'Etherium News', to be changed to Prima Matra news (we found out that the
name Etherium was a registered trade name, and wish to remain in as neutral
a position as possible) with the next issue. We intend to bring both
spiritual and scientific information together in the newsletter to keep
those interested in these Prima Matra powders informed of the latest
information. The newsletter will not accept any paid advertising, nor
product pricing information, but invites anyone who has developed new
techniques, products or uses for these substances to submit written articles
for others to benefit by. We can not offer any direct remuneration for the
articles, but will extend a subscription to the contributors and allow them
to place information for the readers on how to access further info on their
products / services with the article. The newsletter is available for $13.00
per year and will come out quarterly. Further information on how to contact
us will follow.

We also are producing a Sacred 'Doctrine of Inner Mysteries' called Temple
Doors available quarterly for $28.00 per year. This publication dates back
to 1980 when it was called 'Source'. The main energy involved in the
information presented comes from Thoth Hermes Trismesgistus, otherwise known
as Tehuti. Maia Shamayyim, the founder of the Mystery School (formerly Star
of Isis) has been source translating (similar to channeling, but with some
profound differences) for 27 years. Tehuti was ans is a Master Physician,
Architect and Alchemist. He has given us a considerable, and ever expanding
body of information regarding the Prima Matra, both David Hudsons 'Orme' and
the naturally occuring 'Etherium'. Much of this information (primarily on
the Etherium in the)appears in an article that appeared in 'Temple Doors'
3/4-'95 issue, a double issue as we were only producing 2 per year the last
few years (now quarterly as previously stated). This is an 18 page article
in a 69 page publication available for $14.00.

There are other types of 'Prima Matra' on the planet also. The Amrit Kalash
that Maharishi Mahesh Yogi distributes to his disciples is also a form of
the Prima Matra. According to Tehuti, Prima Matra is a form of the first
unviolate matter. When this creation began to condense from a purely
spiritual raelity into a more physical form, the first matter that formed
was unviolated by human thought and emotion (lower forms) and was the true
Prima Matra. These substances are an octave of that original substance. The
naturally occuring form has an etheric molecule, called iropiya by Tehuti,
which he has said is probably not detectable by the current scientific
community. the main difference between the manufactured substance that david
Hudson has developed and the naturally occuring powders (there are sites now
producing in Utah also) is the etheric molecule. In the case of Orme, there
is a much greater content of the iridium and rhodium etc. than in the
naturally occuring powders. Tehuti has stated that the small quantities of
rhodium and iridium in the natural powders is in the exact proportion
necessary in order to create the 'bridge' between the physical body and the
etheric molecule, whereas the Orme is using the higher content of the
rhodium and iridium as its main 'light' transducer directly. The Orme is
working on more the electromagnetic level of reality, with the natural
powders working more etherically in their focus. Tehuti has stated that a
combination of both would be rather powerful for many.

We welcome comment and further inquiry. We have a Introduction & Catalog
which lists all publications/ tapes and services available for a requested
$5.00 donation to offset our expenses. We can be reached through this forum
for those who have other info to share with the forum, or at the following:
Johannine Grove ~ P.O 235 ~ Crestone, CO 81131 (719) 256-4057 e-mail
johgrove@rmii.com


Mon Feb 26 09:17:21 1996
Subject: 0307 Dave Hudson forum

There is now an E-mail forum dedicated to wxploring the work and ideas of Dave Hudson and the white powder gold.

Persons wishing to subscribe, should email WhiteGold-request@zz.com. The word subscribe should appear both in the Subject and Body fields of the post. To
receive a FAQ, without subscribing, send email to: WhiteGold-info@zz.com.


Adam McLean


Mon Feb 26 19:08:10 1996
Subject: 0308 menstruum = solvent?

Date: 26 Feb 96 06:28:58 EST
From: MARVIN LOWES


On Mon, 19 Feb 96 at 11:37 Rob Brezsny enquired:
>>Can anyone provide references from medieval and Renaissance
>>texts wherein the solvent is referred to as "menstruum"?

I know there are members of the list better qualified and located to answer this
question, but failing other replies I can provide one or two leads and comments
from my Oxford English Dictionary!


"The development in medeival Latin of this sense is to be explained by the fact
that in alchemy the base metal undergoing trasmulation to gold was compared to
the seed within the womb, undergoing development by the agency of menstrual
blood."

1471 RIPLEY Complete Alchemy.
"For invysible, ys truely thys Meustruall."

1477 NORTON Ordinary Alchemy.
"The seminall seed Masculine, Hath wroght and won the Victory, Upon the
menstrualls worthily."

Interestingly enough, this concept must have been well established as it seems
to have devolved into the use of menstrum as a general solvent. Thus in the 17th
century you have

BACON 1626 Art. Enq. Metals:
"We are to enquire what is the propoer menstrum to disolve any metal."

and from one of the most imaginative and powerful 17th century authors

BROWNE 1646 Pseud Ep.
"Powerful menstrumms are made for its emolition."

This developes into

CHESSELDON 1713: Anatomy
"Out digestion is performed by a Menstrum which is cheifly saliva."

and finally to - I know everyone will enjoy this subtle shift -

W. LEWIS 1763 Com. Phil. Tec. "The most effective menstrum of gold is called
aqua regia."

Well, not finally. By the end of the 19th century, The London Illustrated News
(26 April, 1890) can write
"Paradoxes are the menstrums of friendship, they disintegrate regard."



%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

Tony Lowes @ the south west of Ireland.
Tel: *353 27 73025 Fax *353 27 73131
e-mail 73551.655@compuserve.com
It is what human beings say that is true and false. They agree in the language
they use. This is not agreement in opinions but in forms of life. (Ludwig
Wittgenstein, Philosophical Investigations)

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%


Mon Feb 26 21:24:23 1996
Subject: 0309 alchemy and christianity

From: George Randall Leake III
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 09:52:39 -0600


>From: WTHEISEN [edited for brevity]

>I DOUBT VERY MUCH WHETHER THERE ARE ANY RELIGIOUS COMMUNITIES TODAY
>THAT ARE ENGAGED IN ALCHEMY.
***was this ever the question?

>DOES ANYONE KNOW OF ANY DECREES THAT CONDEMN ALCHEMY FOR ANY OTHER
>REASONS?
*the British Parliament banned it, specifically manufacturing gold by means
of alchemy, in I think the 14-15th Century, because they didn't want the
Crown to become independent of Parliament's purse strings; at this time the
King had employed a number of alchemists (obviously he had taken Alchemy
completely literally)

-G.Leake, 512-471-9117 taliesin@mail.utexas.edu

"To be ignorant of what occurred before you were born is to remain always a
child."
-Cicero
"Oh age! oh letters! It is a joy to be alive!...Woe to you, barbarians!"
-Ulrich von Hutten, 1518, Poet Laureate of the German Empire


Mon Feb 26 21:24:30 1996
Subject: 0310 apothecaries and crocodiles

From: Jane E. Jenkins
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 11:16:00 -0600 (CST)

To Alchemy Forum members,
Could anyone provide any information about the significance of stuffed
crocodiles (or alligators?) hanging in apothecary shops. I've seen
several pictures showing this, including the image of a 16th c.
alchemical lab, posted in the virtual alchemy library. Are there any
references I could look at for more information about this?
Thanks.
J.E. Jenkins
jenkins@charlie.acc.iit.edu


Mon Feb 26 21:24:42 1996
Subject: 0311 David Hudsons White Powder Gold

From: Barry Carter
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 09:07:46 +0000

simeon writes on 2/25/96:

> In response to the many requests I saw on the forum under this topic
> heading. There is an excellent location with 12 pages of David Hudsons story
> at http://www.teleport.com/~boydroid/gold.htm This document has some of
> the scientific info associated with David Hudsons work also. I know there is
> another site with about 33 pages of info but have not been able to locate it
> at this point.

In a posting to the White Gold forum on the same date Joe Champion
said:


I will be posting a copy of David's Hudson patent in entirety (including
drawings) this week at:http://www.netzone.com/~discpub

Also, I have posted a copy of one of his Dallas lectures at the above site.

Do not construe this as advertisement, only the sharing of knowledge.

Joe Champion email discpub@netzone.com
http://www.netzone.com/~discpub

Here is how to join the White Gold forum.

Reply to: WhiteGold@zz.com zz.com originates in White
To Join: WhiteGold-request@zz.com Fort Lauderdale FL USA Gold
To Leave: WhiteGold-quit@zz.com via midnight!east BBS Forum
Moderator: binga@zz.com sysadmin: zz@zz.com (c)1996


> the main difference between the manufactured substance that david
> Hudson has developed and the naturally occuring powders (there are sites now
> producing in Utah also) is the etheric molecule. In the case of Orme, there
> is a much greater content of the iridium and rhodium etc. than in the
> naturally occuring powders. Tehuti has stated that the small quantities of
> rhodium and iridium in the natural powders is in the exact proportion
> necessary in order to create the 'bridge' between the physical body and the
> etheric molecule, whereas the Orme is using the higher content of the
> rhodium and iridium as its main 'light' transducer directly. The Orme is
> working on more the electromagnetic level of reality, with the natural
> powders working more etherically in their focus. Tehuti has stated that a
> combination of both would be rather powerful for many.

According to Hudson, the materials from the Choctaw Native American woman
Nellie's land contain very little or no monoatomic rhodium or
iridium. I understand that these results were confirmed by people
other than Hudson. I am suspicious of channelled information that is
vague and unverifiable or that contains predictions after the fact.




Barry Carter
Blue Mountain Native Forest Alliance
Voice 541-523-3357
Fax 541-523-9438

The road to hell is paved with good inventions.


Tue Feb 27 09:22:21 1996
Subject: 0312 A Lighter Moment

From: RJB
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 14:10:41 -0700 (PDT)




Thanks for the reply to my question about the authorship of the
_Kybalion_.

This means that any resemblances between the _Kybalion_ and GD material
are purely non-coincidental?

LeGrand Cinq-Mars
rjb@u.washington.edu


Tue Feb 27 09:26:26 1996
Subject: 0313 Goethe and the Stone

From: Beat Krummenacher
Date: 26 Feb 96 19:32:15 EST

Dear Petra,

Goethe fell ill in September 1768, as he had returned home from Leipzig. His
condition visibly aggravated. Soon it seemed, that the young life would find a
sudden end. Goethe was then 19 years old. However then an event happened, which has fundamentally stamped the whole life of Goethe. Let us hear Goethe himselve
(taken out of "poetry and truth"):

" Still a very hard test was meanwhile prepared for me: For a disturbed and one
might well say, for certain moments destroying digestion produced such symptoms,
that I believed to lose my life under large worries, and no applied medicines
further something wanted to be of use. In these last troubles my pressed mother
forced the embarrassed doctor with the largest impetuosity, to pull out his
universal medicine. After long resistance he hurried home deeply in the night
and came back with a glass of crystalized dry salt, which was dissolved in water
and was swallowed by the patient, and which had a decided alkaline taste. The
salt was hardly taken, so a relief of the condition showed itself, and from the
moment the disease took a turn, which gradually led to improvement. I may not
say, however this strengthened and increased the belief in our doctor and the
industry to make us blessed of a such treasure."

That doctor had the reputation to have been an alchemist. Whether the medicine
has been the tincture or only a particular is unimportant. Significant for the
whole occident was, that owing to the universal medicine of this alchemist
Goethe survived and could exercise his large influence on the development of
whole Europe.

It little astonishes, that Goethe was deeply impressed through this experience.
Subsequently he began to engage himself especially with two alchemical writings
in detail. He studied the "Aurea Catena Homeri" - in the English known under the
title "The golden Chain of Homer" by Anton Joseph Kirchweger and "Opus
magocabbalisticum et theosophicum" by Georg von Welling. These alchemical works
moved Goethe to begin also practical experiments in the cement floor of his
apartment house. He tried one and a half year to find the philosopher's stone,
until he unsuccessfully interrupted all practical experiments. However the world
view of the alchemists engaged him all his life. The seed of the alchemical
thinking had been deeply put into the soul of Goethe. Ripened it led to
composing his "Faust".

If one wants to understand the content of Goethes "Faust" and properly point it,
one must read the both mentioned alchemical writings. Goethe was however no
genuine alchemist, since he had practically unsuccessfully worked and given up
soon all his practical experiments. Goethes "Faust" belongs to the world
literature. As alchemical book it is at most interesting from the philosophical
point of view. It brings nothing the practitioner! For generally counts: Only
who knows through own experience, can put others on the right track. Thus also
it is idly to speculate on it, which person in Goethes poetry is to be
identified with which prima materia or which of the four elements. Since Goethe
did not personally know it, everything remains in the haze of poetic
imagination...

Best regards
Beat

100667.1267@compuserve.com


Tue Feb 27 10:44:08 1996
Subject: 0314 A Lighter Moment

From: Art Kunkin
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 17:25:55 -0800 (PST)


>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 11:51:41 -0700 (PDT)
>From: LeGrand Cinq-Mars
>
>
>This is a bit of a digression -- but I have heard that Paul Case
>was one of the auhtors of the Kybalion; now Pat Zalewski says that
>all three were expelled by Moina Mathers. Who were the other two?
>Is there any good material available on the authorship and background
>of the _Kybalion_?
>

The three anonymous authors of the Kyballion are: Paul Case (founder of the
Brotherhood of the Adytum BOTA), Marie Corelli (author of many metaphysical
novels), and William Walker Atkinson, much published New Thought editor
(who also wrote many books under the name of Yogi Ramacharaka). Cordially,
Art Kunkin.

Art Kunkin
Publisher and Editor, World Wide Free Press
URL: http://www.wwfreepress.com/
Voice: 310-455-2451 E-Mail: kunkin@cinenet.net
Snail Mail: 115 S. Topanga Canyon Blvd, Suite #166


Tue Feb 27 16:10:11 1996
Subject: 0315 Goethe and the Stone

From: John Obrien
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 07:13:33 -0600 (CST)


>
> From: Beat Krummenacher
>apartment house. He tried one and a half year to find the philosopher's stone,
>until he unsuccessfully interrupted all practical experiments.However the world
>view of the alchemists engaged him all his life. The seed of the alchemical
>thinking had been deeply put into the soul of Goethe. Ripened it led to
>composing his "Faust".
>
Good story; I think it helps point out that studying and attempting the
Alchemical process(es) can be a life changing experience.

Not only that but, there is not just one path to creating "Gold".

--
,o888b,`?~~~~~ ~~~~~P',d888o,
,8888 888 ?~~~ John D. O'Brien obriens@sound.net ~~~P 888 8888,
8888888P' ~~~ ~~~ ?8888888
888P' ~~~ "When all the World recognizes ~~~ `?888
`88 O d~~~ good as good, This in itself ~~~b O 88'
`?._ _.o~~~~~ is Evil." Lao Tsu ~~~~~o._ _.P'


Tue Feb 27 17:29:55 1996
Subject: 0316 Margaret South Atwood's Text

From: Bill Bunn
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 11:48:22 -0500


Hello there.

Does anyone know of any good sources for Margaret South Atwood's book --
Suggestive Inquiry? Were all copies destroyed by her successfully?

I'm also looking for some biographical material about her and her times.
If anyone is aware of these kinds of sources please let me know. I would
be extremely grateful.

Bill Bunn

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
Bill, Linda, and Ezra Bunn
Banjo Bob and Mussy
all live at
webunn@watarts.uwaterloo.ca


Tue Feb 27 17:40:18 1996
Subject: 0317 Margaret South Atwood's Text

>Does anyone know of any good sources for Margaret South Atwood's book --
>Suggestive Inquiry? Were all copies destroyed by her successfully?

Not at all. Many copies seem to have survived. I myself have seen three copies. It was reprinted early in the 20th century and again issued a decade or so ago by Yogi Publications Society (as I recall). I am sure Kessinger publications currently has a photocopy reprint.

A colleague I met through the alchemy web site has begun scanning this work and it will eventually be made available on the alchemy web site.

The myth of M.A. Atwood and her father is explored in an imaginative way in a recent novel The Chymical Wedding by Lindsay Clark (Jonathan Cape, 1989).

Another important writer from the same period is E.A. Hitchcock. Has anyone transcribed his alchemical writings? I would like to make these available on the Web.


With my best wishes,

Adam McLean


Tue Feb 27 22:44:29 1996
Subject: 0318 alchemy and christianity/the mysterium

From: Flamel@aol.com
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 13:51:12 -0500


On Feb 26, 1996, George Leake wrote in response:

>>>DOES ANYONE KNOW OF ANY DECREES THAT CONDEMN ALCHEMY FOR ANY
OTHER>REASONS?
*the British Parliament banned it, specifically manufacturing gold by means
of alchemy, in I think the 14-15th Century, because they didn't want the
Crown to become independent of Parliament's purse strings; at this time the
King had employed a number of alchemists (obviously he had taken Alchemy
completely literally)<<

What this thread brings up is another leading idea in alchemy, namely the
theme of the "mysterium" (cf., the thread on "locating the prima materia" for
another leading idea in alchemy). In its common use the word mysterium
usually refers to something like an organization, a secret society, or cult,
such as the Eleusinian Mysteries or Mithraic Mysteries, which we hardly know
anything about what took place there. Waite investigated theme this in his
book the *Secret Tradition in Alchemy* and came to the conclusion that no
such cult celebrating mysteries existed in alchemy. A secret organization
did exist, the 17th century Rosicrucians, and many later alchemists seemed to
belong to this society. This secret order continued to exist and certain
remnants still exist, i.e., the secretiveness still goes on, however, I don't
want to enter into this aspect here.

Agrippa has an interesting passage in this regard in his learned book, "On
the uncertainty and vanity of all the sciences and arts" (1653). In this
book he devotes a section to alchemy where he says:

"I could therefore say a great deal about this art (which is not so very
hateful to me) if no vow of silence existed (those who are initiated into the
mysteries take this vow). Beyond this, this vow has been so constantly and
religiously kept by the old philosophers and authors, that no philosopher of
recognized authority and no reliable author has ever referred to it (the
secret) with a single word."

Agrippa speaks of a vow of silence and says no alchemistic author ever
mentions the secret. Agrippa was a Humanist and a skeptic when it came to
the sciences, so his remark about alchemy, that he could say a lot and that
he doesn't hate it, means that he was an admirer of the art. One can
conclude that he means what he says, and that he was hindered by a vow of
silence. This was before the days of the Rosicrucians, so it was not a
matter of that society. This strange remark may refer to some kind of
organized mystery in alchemy, but if so we have no idea of what it consisted.

Typically, the mysterium was usually designated as the lapis philosophorum,
the central secret of alchemy is the mystery of the stone. I don't want to
enter into this aspect of the discussion right now and what the old masters
have to say about this, but want to stay with the central theme of the
"mysterium" as present in medieval alchemy, either in the sense of a secret
or as some kind of unknown ritual. We are all well aware that there is a
tremendous secret about the whole enterprise. The old authors repeat this
again and again - that the matter is a mystery and must be concealed. Unless
we are ready to concede that for nearly nineteen centuries alchemy was a
gigantic hoax, we are bound to conclude that that there really was something
about alchemy which struck the old masters as very mysterious or else that
there was a grim outer necessity to make a mystery of it. If we think
ourselves back into the psychology of the Middle Ages, it may not be
impossible to understand why such secretiveness existed. One of the reasons
undoubtably can be found in the persecution of heretics. The following
addition is not to detract from George Leake's response which engages the
issue of the condemnation of alchemy from a different perspective.

What follows are some passages from the regulations for the treatment of
heretics from which you can see some of the difficulties with which the
alchemists had to contend. The first is from the "Regulations of the Synod
of Toulouse, in the Year 1229." This Synod passed laws which remained valid
for the persecution of heretics throughout the Middle Ages. It says:

"1. In every parish, inside as well as outside the city, the Bishops must
appoint one priest and two, three or more laymen of good repute, and if
necessary bind them by oath, to search diligently, faithfully and frequently
for heretics in these parishes; and to examine individually suspicious
houses, underground cellars, annexes, and other hidden corners, which must
all be destroyed. If they discover any heretics, credentes (those who
believe in heretics), patrons or protectors of heretics, they must (taking
every precaution that the heretics may not escape) immediately denounce them
to the Bishop, or to the Lord of that place, or his baliffs, in order that
they may be suitably punished.

2. The exempted Abbots, who are not under episcopal jurisdiction, must do
the same (as the Bishops) in their districts.

3. The Lords of the various districts must have the estates, houses and
woods diligently searched for heretics, and must destroy their hiding places.

4. In the future he who harbors a heretic in his territory, whether for
money or for any other reason, will lose his possessions for ever (whether he
pleads guilty or is convicted) and his body will be delivered to his
supporters for suitable punishment.

5. But he also, whose territory has become (even without his knowledge but
through his carelessness) a frequent refuge for heretics, will be liable to
the punishment of the law.

6. The house, in which one has found a heretic, must be torn down, and the
place or ground must be confiscated.

7. The baliff, who lives in a suspicious place and is not diligent in
searching for heretics, shall lose his post and may not be installed
elsewhere.

8. But in order that innocent persons may not be punished and that no one
shall be wrongfully accused, we decree that no heretic or credens shall be
punished, until the Bishop, or other authorized clerical person, has declared
him to be a heretic or credens.

9. Every one is permitted to search for heretics in the territory of
another, and the baliffs of the place in question must give him every
assistance. So the King may search for heretics in the domain of the Court
of Toulouse and vice versa.

10. When a _haereticus vestitus_ (a clerical heretic) voluntarily renounces
his heresy, he may not remain on the estate where he lived before, if this is
suspected of heresy, must be transplanted into a Catholic, wholly non
suspect, estate. In addition he must wear two crosses on his clothes, one on
the right and one on the left, and they must be of a different color to that
of the clothes. Also such persons must not have access tp public offices or
legal action, unless, after suitable penances, they are reinstated in
integrum by the Pope or his legates.

11. Whoever does not return voluntarily to the Church, but only through fear
of death or for some other reason, must be imprisoned by the Bishop to
complete his penance and in order to prevent him from misleading others."

These were the principal regulations in force in France. After the Synod in
France, Frederick II, on March 5, 1232, made the following laws in Germany:

"1. Everyone who is condemned by the Church as a heretic, is to be punished
with death by the civil judges.

2. Those, who return to the bosom of the Church through fear of death, are
to be punished with imprisonment for life.

3. All suspected persons must be kept in close custody during the
investigation.

4. Supporters of heretics meet with the same punishment as the heretics
themselves.

5. Heretics are to be punished in every place, also when they have left
their homes.

6. Relapsing heretics are to be condemned to death without further ado.

7. Heretics, as well as their supporters, have no right of appeal or
proclamation, in order that the disgrace of heresy may be removed by every
means from faithful orthodox Germany.

8. The descendants and heirs of heretics, and their supporters, shall be
deprived of all their worldly privileges and public honors, unto the second
generation; with the exception of orthodox children who denounce their
heretical parents."

This represents the state of affairs in the 13th century. It was obviously
very unwise in those days to give the smallest sign of having any different
opinions. This explains a great deal of the secretiveness, for alchemy is,
of course, full of allusions which could be interpreted in a way that might
have had very disagreeable consequences for the alchemists. If they were
afraid, they had good reason for their fear, and that alone must have forced
them to be secretive. But under the circumstances it is astonishing that
they published such books at all, they might simply have not written their
treatises. There must have been a very strong emotional motive behind them,
compelling them to publish these books in spite of the regulations. This
very real danger makes their emphasis on Christianity understandable, and
indeed the medieval books frequently contain the most orthodox confession of
faith, usually at the beginning and end. It is interesting that the
alchemists say themselves that they use a language intended to conceal; and,
quite apart from the general fact that the mystery must be kept secret, they
say the language which they use is mystical or symbolic, but this gets into
another leading idea of alchemy, namely, the use of a secret language.

LeGrand, and others, who have more knowledge in this area than I may wish to
comment further on the role of the persecution of heretics and the
secretiveness of the old alchemical masters. As always, additions and
further reflections are welcome.

Maury



Tue Feb 27 22:45:21 1996
Subject: 0319 Margaret South Atwood's Text

Date: 27 Feb 96 15:01:39 EST
From: Marcus Williamson

Bill,

> Does anyone know of any good sources for Margaret South Atwood's
> book -- Suggestive Inquiry? Were all copies destroyed by her
> successfully?

They are definitely available. I have a reprint (not to hand at present,
unfortunately) which I got in a bookshop called Compendium, Camden, London. Can
provide more details on the weekend - send me an e-mail if you'd like to know
more.

regards
Marcus
71333.1665@compuserve.com
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/marcus_williamson/


Tue Feb 27 22:46:21 1996
Subject: 0320 Margaret South Atwood's Text

From: Jeffrey A Steele
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 96 14:23 CDT


Atwood's book was reprinted under the title _Hermetic Philosophy and Alchemy_.
I was led to it by a member of the ARCANA discussion group recently, as I have
been searching for the source of Margaret Fuller's alchemical talisman (more in
this in a moment). I have the reprint on my desk in front of me. Our Rare Book
collection here ar Wisconsin has a copy of the 1850 edition of _Suggestive
Inquiry_' so the book is available.

Fuller's talisman, printed as a frontispiece of _Woman in the Nineteenth
Century_ consists of a modified seal of Solomon (a black triangle superimposed
on an inverted white triagle) surrounded by a ouroboros (snake swallowing its
tail) and a halo of rays. This emblem first appears in Fuller's 1844 journal,
where it is accompanied by the following poem:

Patient serpent, circle round,
Till in death thy life is found;
Double form of godly prime
Holding the whole thought of time,
When the perfect two embrace,
Male & female, black & white,
Soul is justified in space,
Dark made fruitful by the light;
And, centred in the diamond Sun,
Time & Eternity are one.

I am searching for the source of this emblem and would greatly appreciate any
assistance list members could provide. Here is what I know so far:

--Fuller knew Goethe's works better than anyone else in mid-nineteenth century
America and was aware of the alchemical themes in his work,

--she read Swwdenborg and Jakob Bohme, as well as many 19th-century mesmerists,

--an emblem resembling Fuller's (but not identical) is found in Atwood's 1850
book,

--the emblem of the Theosophical society is also quite similar,

--some 16th and 17th-century alchemical emblems contain some of the emblems of
Fuller's emblem.

I am particularly interested in any information list members could provide about
the state of alchemical/theosophical/occult knowledge in American between 1830
and 1845. My goal, of course, is to find the exact source (if one exists) for
Fuller's design.

Jeffrey Steele, jasteele@macc.wisc.edu


Wed Feb 28 08:53:14 1996
Subject: 0321 Toulouse (13th century)

From: RJB
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 16:28:12 -0700 (PDT)




Those regulations however were not simply any regulations applied
to any medieval city -- Toulouse was one of the centers of
the Albigensian movement (and territory, and political structure),
which was in the final stages of eradication at about that time. (Toulouse
was afterward directly administered from Paris.) This regulations are thus
not typical regulations for any place during the 13th century, but
regulations promulgated at the end of a military/political/religious
campaign of reconquest.

Is there any contemporary (as opposeed to modern) documentation linking
the Albigensian movement with alchemy, either in the minds of Albigensians, the
minds of alchemists, or the minds of political or religious opponents of
the movement?

LeGrand Cinq-Mars
rjb@u.washington.edu


Wed Feb 28 08:54:02 1996
Subject: 0322 apothecaries and crocodiles

From: Claude Gagnon
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 20:38:47 -0500 (EST)


Crocodiles are dragons. Dragons with wings are oftenly used as deckname
in the art of painting the Great work. It also means the result of
distillation (cf. Flamel's arche in Paris).
Claude Gagnon


Wed Feb 28 08:55:03 1996
Subject: 0323 Margaret South Atwood's Text

From: RJB
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 15:00:46 -0700 (PDT)


Author: Atwood, Mary A. Atwood, Mary Anne
Contributors: Wilmshurst, Walter L. (Introduction by)
Title: A Suggestive Inquiry into the Hermetic Mystery
Edition: Reprint ed.
Publisher: Ayer Company Publishers, Incorporated
Year: 1976
Series: Occult Ser.
Pages: 597p.
ISBN/Price: 0-405-07938-9 Trade Cloth $56.95
0-911662-64-2 Trade Cloth $20.00


Author: Atwood, Mary A. Wilmshurst, Walter L.
Title: Hermetic Philosophy and Alchemy
Edition: Reprint ed.
Publisher: A M S Press, Incorporated
ISBN/Price: 0-404-18446-4 Trade Cloth $74.50
Subj (BIP): ALCHEMY. HERMETISM

-- or so says US Books in Print.

LeGrand Cinq-Mars
rjb@u.washington.edu


Wed Feb 28 09:02:45 1996
Subject: 0224 Goethe and the Stone

From: Josh
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 15:25:36 -0800

Thanks for the Goethe story, Beat.

I recently found a collection of short Goethe pieces (_Tales for
Transformation_, City Lights Books, San Francisco, 1987). It includes a
really lovely alchemical allegory ("Marchen," or "Fairy Tale") and "The New
Melusina," supposed to be inspired by Paracelsus' treatise "De Pygmaeis."
Nice frontispiece from Atalanta Fugiens, too.


Wed Feb 28 09:02:52 1996
Subject: 0225 David Hudsons White Powder Gold

From: Josh Senyak
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 15:25:37 -0800



Can anyone explain what it would mean for a substance to be an "octave" of
another substance?

And a definition of an "etheric molecule"?

Thanks,

/jcs

>These substances are an octave of that original substance. The
>naturally occuring form has an etheric molecule, called iropiya by Tehuti,
>which he has said is probably not detectable by the current scientific
>community....
> Tehuti has stated that the small quantities of
>rhodium and iridium in the natural powders is in the exact proportion
>necessary in order to create the 'bridge' between the physical body and the
>etheric molecule....


Wed Feb 28 09:03:00 1996
Subject: 0326 Goethe and the Stone

From: Petra Gottlieb
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 10:26:10 +1100


Dear Beat,

LISTEN TO THE PHARMACIST SPEAKING!
I must strongly object to your:
>Goethe was however no genuine alchemist since he had practically
unsuccessfully worked and given up soon all his practical experiments.<

I wonder why? Because he did not want to get lost in sheer objectivity of
his pure pounded powders. His Universal Medicine had a somewhat different
manifestation and effect, it related more to Life itself as a "Whole",
SUBJECT INCLUDED. That's why he "personified", and dramatised the Opus. The manifestation of his SPIRITUAL GOLD > IS HIS FAUST! AND WHAT A "UNIVERSAL
MEDICINE" IT IS!
"Es kann die Spur von meinen Erdentagen nicht in Aeonen untergehen."
(The traces of my earthly days cannot in aeons sink into oblivion).

Could you say that regarding the tinctures you are making?
I had hoped you could help me in the chemistry of things, because in this
field I am still a novice, but it seems I am on my own again.
I still "believe " the "Chemical" Opus is hidden in the personified drama of
Goethe's Faust, just like in his "Wahlverwandtschaften". Once I have reached
"conviction" I will let you know.

---
PETRA CHRISTIANE GOTTLIEB
petrag@iaccess.com.au

OHNE LIEBE KEINE KUNST! (Paracelsus)
WITHOUT LOVE THERE IS NO ART!


Wed Feb 28 09:03:06 1996
Subject: 0327 Margaret South Atwood's Text

From: Michael.Miller@Ebay.Sun.COM (Michael D. Miller)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 15:34:01 -0800


>Fuller's talisman, printed as a frontispiece of _Woman in the Nineteenth
>Century_ consists of a modified seal of Solomon (a black triangle superimposed
>on an inverted white triagle) surrounded by a ouroboros (snake swallowing its
>tail) and a halo of rays. This emblem first appears in Fuller's 1844 journal,
>where it is accompanied by the following poem:

Jeffrey,

The two triangles, one black and the other white, surrounded by a
circle is used also as a symbol of the Martinist Order.

I'll look and see what I have and post it to you if you want.



When cryptography is outlawed, bayl bhgynjf jvyy unir cevinpl."

michael.miller@ebay.sun.com
SUN MICROsystems--MIL12-04--2550 GARCIA AVE--MOUNTAIN VIEW CA 94043-1100

It's no good, it's no good say the buyer; Then off he goes and boasts
about his purchase. -- Proverbs 20:14


Wed Feb 28 09:03:19 1996
Subject: 0328 Margaret South Atwood's Text and Margaret Fuller

From: Tom Willard
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 17:22:24 -0700 (MST)


Very interesting about Fuller, who was certainly interested in
transformation. I wonder whether Barret's _Celestial Intelligencer_ would
have been readily available for her. There was certainly a lot of older
material in Boston libraries, and I can recommend, though I haven't
looked at it for many years, Leventhal's book _In the Shadow of the
Enlightenment_, which traces alchemical concerns into eighteenth-century
America.

Tom Willard
willard@ccit.arizona.edu


Wed Feb 28 09:03:29 1996
Subject: 0329 Margaret South Atwood's Text

From: Tom Willard@CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU>
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 17:09:48 -0700 (MST)


There are some interesting notes on Mary Ann South and her father in two
books reviewed in the current issue of Cauda Pavonis: Studies in Hermeticism.

Joscelyn Godwin's _The Theosophical Enlightenment_ (SUNY Press)

Peter Washington's _Madame Blavatsky's Baboon_ (American edition, Schocken
Books).

Both books are indexed.

Tom Willard


Wed Feb 28 09:09:18 1996
Subject: 0330 Kyballion

From: Petra Gottlieb
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 18:50:01 +1100

On behalf of Alec Gathercole

>The halfwise...
>We may have to go back to the beginning and check where we deviated
>then prepare again for the whole journey

The quotation from the misconscrewed reference to Moira Matter's removal
from the Golden Dawn of Paul Case, Arthur Edward Waite, and William B Yeates
is historical, the result of a power struggle with a winner and some
loosers. These people were more the editors or compilers of the Kyballion
rather than the authers.
The caption submitted was not about good or bad Cabalah but rather about a
path to go. There are many ways to do these things and plenty of tools to
help us find the gracefull path.
Two other excellent tools which are probably in the hands of each of us
already, they are "The Book of Porverbs" and "The Book of Ecclesiastes" in
the Old Testament. The caption indicates that we need Morality, Ethics,
Integrity, Honour and Self Esteem in our character expressed by our Nien
(way of thinking) and approach to social justice.
These are better dedicines than spagyrics and chemicals and are
prerequisites to Divine Instruction being made available.
Fundamental Laws are an integral part of the Paracelsian University's
curriculum.

Alec (petrag@iaccess.com.au)


Wed Feb 28 14:55:22 1996
Subject: 0331 Hudson link - the Octave and etheric chemistry

Josh Senyek writes:-
>Can anyone explain what it would mean for a substance to be an "octave" of
>another substance?
>And a definition of an "etheric molecule"?

It seems that the Dave Hudson 'White powder Gold' people are now searching out all sorts of esoteric jargon in order to give an explanation of their material.

In chemistry, the Periodic Table is arranged in 'octaves', that is the chemical elements form a pattern which has an eightfold structure. Thus, taking the elements of group I, the Alkali metals, as an example - Potassium can be seen as an octave of Sodium, and Rubidium as an octave of Potassium, etc. However, this is probably not what is meant here.

I think we will find that the 'etheric molecule' leads us back to the Theosophists Annie Besant and Charles Leadbeater. In the early 20th century they wrote a couple of books on 'Occult chemistry', based on their clairvoyant investigations integrated with ideas from contemporary chemistry (which was at that time in a ferment due to the discovery of radioactivity and the periodic table of the elements). This remarkable book seemed to sketch a coherent view of an etheric and astral chemistry, in which the outer properties of matter were reflected in the higher planes, the etheric, astral. etc. This work was not followed up and in any case could not lead to any method of verification through experimentation, as everything rested upon Leadbeater's clairvoyance.

I don't know if the Hudson people have dicovered this book, but when they do they will be especially interested in a section on the interior etheric structure of Osmium, Iridium and Platinum, containing a number of diagrams of etheric 'ovoids' and 'bars'. Interestingly Leadbeater identifies a new form of Platinum, which he calls Platinum B (and states it to be a new element!). The Dave Hudson people will be delighted with this, but one wonders what can be made of Leadbeater's work. After all, this book was written 90 years ago, and no one has ever been able to follow up its ideas. The ideas have a beautiful symmetry and coherence. Although they are a triumph of creative imagination, they cannot be investigated further.

With my best wishes,

Adam McLean


Wed Feb 28 17:17:49 1996
Subject: 0332 Dragons...Pearls...Gnosis...Alchemy

From: OISPEGGY
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 10:27:06 -0500 (EST)

Here is a relevant crosspost from Hermetica, posted with permission
of the author -- Zos.
********************************************************************
THE PEARL

Of all most beautiful creations, surely the Pearl is one. It is in
many ways one of the most exquisite and far-reaching symbols of Western
Esotericism, aptly known in Gnostic circles long ago and still an
enduring symbol of wisdom and knowledge today -- from the Greek
*margarou* "pearl" as in "The kingdom of heaven is like a merchant in
search of fine pearls, who, on finding one pearl of great value, went
and sold all that he had and bought it" (Mt 13:45)...resonant with the
teachings is Proverbs, where the Pearl is Wisdom, "She is more precious
than jewels and nothing you desire can compare to Her" (Prov 3:15) or
as Job 28:18 says, "No mention shall be made of coral or crystal, for
the price of Wisdom is above [even] pearls." Yet this Wisdom, so valued
above its material symbols and irreducible to them, requires caution
and care for it says also, "Do not throw your peals before swine lest
them trample them underfoot and turn and then, attack you!" (Mt 7:6).

The Chinese know the value of Pearls. They say that the nature of
pearls is a distillation of Moonlight through the magical power of the
Yin principle, that which follows on Hun or Chaos, the uncreated First.
In Chekiang, in the last century, they would put very small images of
the Buddha inside of large mussel and oyster shells only to retrieve
them later coated with "pearl essences" -- the pearl they say, is a
charm against fire and over abundant Yang. The most mysterious of the
pearls, according to Daoism, is the Ye Ming Zhu "Night-Shining Pearl"
and one of the Eight Treasures. The Zhu, or Pearl, is intimately
connected to the Dragon, representing the Pill of Immortality. Also it
is a symbol of hidden and obscure genius or a frequent symbol of
feminine purity and beauty. The Long Dragon is said to have 81 scales
along its back, like ridges in a chain of mountains, with whiskers on
each side of its mouth, a bread under its chin, in the midst of which
is a bright and shining Pearl.

However, it is among the Gnostics that the Pearl is seen to truly
shine forth. The Pearl, in general, represents hidden and esoteric
wisdom, for many of the ancient traditions at the time of early
Christianity. The _Physiologus_ speaks of the "purple oyster...which
comes from the bottom of the sea, opens its mouth, and drinks the dew
of heaven and all the rays of sun, moon and stars, producing thus,
pearls from the lights above." ... Near the shores of the Red Sea, they
"stand with mouths open" and the power of lightning penetrates them and
they "take fright and close up their shells, having lightning trapped
inside them. That lightning wraps around the eye of the creature,
making pearls out of them." Also says John of Damascus, from Mary
Theotokos, "came a pearl of great price, the pearl begot by divine
lightning."

The Gnostic "HYMN OF THE PEARL" (from the _Acts of Thomas_ or "Song
of the Apostle Judas Thomas in the Land of India") tells the story of a
young man sent to Egypt from the east to fetch a pearl out of a "sea
guarded by a dragon" so he might once again regain his "robes of
glory." He finds an Inn by the sea of the dragon and waits for it to
sleep, "a stranger among my fellow dwellers," who nevertheless dons the
clothes and appearance of the Egyptians, lest they "rouse the Serpent
against him." Eating at their table, he forgets his holy origins, falls
under the spell of heavy food, drink and pleasures.

Then, his divine parents, seeing his slumbers, sent him a Letter, a
holy writ, a sacred text, calling him to remember his true mission --
the re-attainment of the robes of glory -- and this Letter came "in the
form of an Eagle, king of the feathered tribes" alighting beside him
and hearing its cry, he was awakened. Chanting the Name of both his
Divine Father and his Holy Mother, Queen of the East, he enspelled the
serpent, seized the Pearl and cast off his old garments. Turning toward
home, he journeyed only part way before he was met, no longer a youth,
with gifts from his parents, and he saw again the robes of glory. But
these robes now as a Mirror Image -- himself in the Robe and the Robe
in him, different yet the Same. "And I saw also quiver over it, the
powers of the Gnosis, and saw that it was about to speak, and it
murmured a song, pouring itself out toward me and ran to embrace it and
clothed myself in its many colored splendors."

The _Gesta Romanorum_ tells the tale of the Maiden who possessed a
precious pearl who her Five Brothers (the senses) tried to steal from
her through seductive talks and promises. But she refused to be lost in
sensual pleasures and when the King appears, she gives him the pearl
and he in turn, marries her and makes her his equal.

The Pearl, as the purest and most lovely of gems, is mysterious.
Appearing only in the fourth year of the oyster, they are a mix of lime
carbonate and oyster gelatin, built in successive layers, symbolizing
the subtle planes that coalesce and combine over time to build an outer
appearance and thus hang, from the ear of an Ethiopian or a dark-eyed
Houri in the Gardens of Allah as a sign of hidden mysteries. Cleopatra,
it is said, swallowed her one of her immensely valuable pearl-earrings,
in a golden cup of wine, claiming that it would completely dissolve and
enhance her immortality. But secretly she wept, having lost her lover and
a kingdom as well -- thus they say, pearls are a sign of love lost, sadness,
tears on the cheeks of even the most beautiful, remembered sea-water. For
pearls removed from the Ocean long to return and can be kept healthy over
years only by being immersed in Mother Seas -- like the soul of all
longing lovers whose hearts are said, according to the Riders of the
Chariot, to each have a Spark -- the pearl of eternal life, never to be
vanquished, but easily forgotten.

- Z -
(irwinl@cofc.edu)



Wed Feb 28 17:20:43 1996
Subject: 0333 Margaret South Atwood's Text

From: John E. Myers
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 11:04:26 EST5EDT

>Does anyone know of any good sources for Margaret South Atwood's book --
>Suggestive Inquiry? Were all copies destroyed by her successfully?
>
>Bill Bunn

My university has a copy and I have also received a copy through inter-library loan.
J.E.M. / "All things come to * *
myersj@gactr.uga.edu / he who waits." * * * *
alt.immortal / I have time. * * *
* * * *
* *


Wed Feb 28 19:02:20 1996
Subject: 0334 Margaret South Atwood's Text

From: dafydd roberts
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 17:32:38 GMT

It may be of interest to some that Mary Ann South features in an old issue
of The Hermetic Journal [1992]-again in an article by Joscelyn Godwin, ' A Behem
ist Circle in Victorian England'.

dafydd roberts


Wed Feb 28 20:10:42 1996
Subject: 0335 alchemy and christianity/the mysterium

From: George Randall Leake III
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 12:04:22 -0600


>From: Flamel@aol.com wrote [edited for brevity]

>What this thread brings up is ... the word mysterium usually refers to
>>something like an organization, a secret society, or cult...

>Agrippa speaks of a vow of silence and says no alchemistic author ever
>mentions the secret. One can conclude that he means what he says, and that
>he >was hindered by a vow of silence.

>We are all well aware that there is a
>tremendous secret about the whole enterprise. The old authors repeat this
>again and again - that the matter is a mystery and must be concealed...
>One of >the reasons undoubtably can be found in the persecution of
>heretics.
~~~~~
*Maury is right on target I believe; I would also add that there are
important differences in the climate of tolerance between the 13th and 16th
centuries. By the 16th Century, Europe had suffered the plague, the threat
of Sulieman and the Turks barely kept at bay at the walls of Vienna, and
the constant threat of war. Also the Papacy was hardly as powerful as it
once was (need I mention the events of the 1520s or the Pope at Avignon?),
and one should consider the effect of the Renaissance. There was a lot more
tolerance for things "pagan" (in the spirit of learning, studying the
ancients was not exactly discouraged) and new ideas during the 16th century
and the power of the Church was lessened somewhat (well, maybe not as much
in Spain). So the lectures of Trithemius and Agrippa were in keeping with
contemporary academic pursuits, at least until Agrippa pushe

Sun Feb much.

*Also, I would say that just because things (like
harboring/supporting/tolerating "heretics") were forbidden doesn't mean
that they did not happen. Look at medieaval statutes passed by the Venetian
Senate against usury. The clergy's preaching finally worked, at least on
paper. The anti-usury legislation was winked at but was only marginally
enforced--loaners could not exceed the going interest rate nor ask for an
excessive downpayment or collateral. I think hermetic pursuits were
tolerated in much the same way. This is why I believe Dee survived and
Bruno was burned.



Wed Feb 28 22:08:43 1996
Subject: 0336 Octaves/Harmonics

From: John Obrien
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 13:18:32 -0600 (CST)



> Can anyone explain what it would mean for a substance to be an "octave" of
> another substance?

> >These substances are an octave of that original substance. The
> >naturally occuring form has an etheric molecule, called iropiya by Tehuti,

I'd venture a guess that it relates to the the way that musical notes can
relate in a harmonic fashion to light waves. This was relate in an artical
published by Paracelsus College in the early 80's. I can relate more detail
if anyone wants it.

--
,o888b,`?~~~~~ ~~~~~P',d888o,
,8888 888 ?~~~ John D. O'Brien obriens@sound.net ~~~P 888 8888,
8888888P' ~~~ ~~~ ?8888888
888P' ~~~ "When all the World recognizes ~~~ `?888
`88 O d~~~ good as good, This in itself ~~~b O 88'
`?._ _.o~~~~~ is Evil." Lao Tsu ~~~~~o._ _.P'


Thu Feb 29 08:54:59 1996
Subject: 0337 alchemy and christianity/the mysterium

From: Jon Marshall
Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 09:15:40 -0800


Ok firstly i agree with RJB about Toulouse and the albigensians- this a
particular moment in history- at this time the church tended to attack movements
of heretics not individuals.

if alchemy was considered as heresy and this was a threat, then why did
alchemists attribute their texts to heretics or those of doubtful faith?

I'd have thought that if the local troops burst open my doors then i might have
just that little extra leighway if i was reading "St.Dominic on the Philosophers
stone" or "St. augustine on furnaces" rather than by digging an extra pit for
myself by reading texts attributed to Geber or Lull....

If alchemy was banned by the church for reasons of faith before the reformation
(not after when, as i wrote earlier, paracelsus was put on the index, and van
helmont imprisoned by the inquisition) then where is this ban written down?

Medieval theologians wrote on everything at length, the documents of the church
are generally NOT vague.
From the late 1400's tomes on witchraft and heresey were written by the hundreds
(this is when the *malleus* came out)- do these discuss alchemy? (in the late
1500s, post reformation, yes)

if not why not?

if they only discuss alchemy as fraud or bad for currency, then that is also a
point.

Please note i have no brief for the church here, but i just want to know of the
evidence for the position that *Alchemy* was considered *heretical* by the
authorities before the great witch burnings and persecutions of the post
reformation period.

incidently Dee survived rather than bruno because Dee fled when it looked like
the church was interested in him, and Bruno went to Rome to justify himself-
Francis Yates mutters something about being immune to a sense of danger through meglomania.

jon


Thu Feb 29 08:56:09 1996
Subject: 0338 alchemy and christianity/the mysterium

From: LeGrand Cinq-Mars
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 17:10:46 -0700 (PDT)


The improved tolerance of the 16th century is no doubt the reason why
the _Malleus Maleficarm_ was published in 1486 and the persecution of witches
peaked between 1580 and 1660.

This period of enlightened tolerance reached its eirenical climax
between 1618 and 1648, in one of the truly characteristic triumphs
of the human spirit.

As for Dee (1527-1608) and Bruno (1548-1600) having different lifespans
because they lived in different periods --


LeGrand Cinq-Mars
rjb@u.washington.edu


Thu Feb 29 08:57:40 1996
Subject: 0339 Margaret South Atwood's Text

From: Julian O'Dea
Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 13:55:29 +1100

Some time ago I asked for opinions on the value or otherwise of Lindsay
Clarke's prizewinning novel "The Chymical Marriage" which seems to be based
in part on Margaret Attwood's life. I am not sure if my message got
through. No comments were forthcoming anyway. Has anyone read the book?

Julian

jodea@mailhost.dpie.gov.au (Julian O'Dea)


Thu Feb 29 08:59:18 1996
Subject: 0340 Beginning alchemy in Las vegas?

Date: Thu, 29 Feb 96 04:23:04 0800
From: "Andrew M. Minkin"

Subject to final approval, I am going to be giving a low cost (<$10),
full day lecture and workshop on herbal alchemy on March 31 in las
Vegas. This event is sponsored by the Las vegas Pronaos of the
Rosicrucian Order, AMORC. I have studied with two illustrious members of
this forum, Russ House and Art Kunkin, and am looking for any
contributions from any sources that you have found benefit in
understanding the basic priniciples of Qabala, spagyric, and other
relevant techniques for alchemy. PLease feel free to send any and all
attchments to my e-mail address. I am sure Adam would rather not clog
the forum with them. Any contributions will be given credit as source
material for the class and are greatly appreciated. Don't be shy, I am
just a modem call away!

Andrew M. Minkin


Thu Feb 29 09:01:10 1996
Subject: 0341 Octaves/Harmonics-Hudsons White Powder Gold

From: simeon
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 96 21:48 MST

Dear John O' Brien,

In response to your question on my previous message in regards to a
substance being an octave of another. It is correct that this refers to a
frequency harmonic such as in music. An octave is an eighth full tone above
a any given tone on the diatonic scale. In the context that I had used the
term however, the sound would not be audible, but exist in the etheric
dimensions of spiritual reality. All matter has a specific frequency of
emission, created by the vibratory activity of its atoms. Again, most of
these sounds are not perceivable to the physical ear. An individual who is
sensitively attuned to the subtler dimensions of reality might very well be
able to perceive them.

So, the Etherium / Orme powders are a form of Prima Matra, but vibrating or
emitting etheric sounds at a frequency some octaves below the original prima
Matra or first unviolate matter. It is similar in concept to water being an
octave of steam, the water inherently contains less energy than the staem,
but vibrates, or emits etheric sounds at some harmonic of the steam. The
steam due to its increased vibratory rate has changed form and somewhat
transcended the limitations of its former state as water.

This is the same principle that applies to the transfiguration of the human
form, as some great Masters have demonstrated.

From Simeon Nartoomid
Crest in the Stone Mystery School
johgrove@rmii.com


Thu Feb 29 09:39:16 1996
Subject: 0342 M.A. Atwood and The Chymical Wedding

Julian O'Dea wrote:-

>Some time ago I asked for opinions on the value or otherwise of Lindsay
>Clarke's prizewinning novel "The Chymical Marriage" which seems to be
> based in part on Margaret Attwood's life. I am not sure if my message
>got through. No comments were forthcoming anyway. Has anyone read
> the book?

Lindsay Clarke's book is an excellent modern novel. It is not a biography, but a well paced drama using the events surrounding the publication of Atwood's book as its starting point. It is not historically accurate and introduces other characters into the part of the plot which is set contemporary with Atwood. The view it presents of her personality does not seem to be based on what we know of her, but is the creative invention of the author. Although a good read, it was not intended to, nor does it give us, any new insights into alchemy or M.A. Atwood, as I am sure the author would be the first to recognise.
One must not use this book as a source for information on Atwood, nor see it as a valid view of her personality.

Adam McLean



Thu Feb 29 12:18:53 1996
Subject: 0343 Octaves/Harmonics


From: Jason Johns
Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 00:30:22 PST

> I'd venture a guess that it relates to the the way that musical notes can
> relate in a harmonic fashion to light waves. This was relate in an artical
> published by Paracelsus College in the early 80's. I can relate more detail
> if anyone wants it.

I am intrigued in this message that John wrote. Could you please provide further information for me?

Many Thanks

Jayzn
[Jason_Johns.RXUK@eur.xerox.com]


Thu Feb 29 12:19:03 1996
Subject: 0344 Margaret South Atwood's Text

From: Art Kunkin
Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 03:01:23 -0800 (PST)


>From: Bill Bunn
>Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 11:48:22 -0500
>
>Hello there.
>
>Does anyone know of any good sources for Margaret South Atwood's book --
>Suggestive Inquiry? Were all copies destroyed by her successfully?
>
>I'm also looking for some biographical material about her and her times.
>If anyone is aware of these kinds of sources please let me know. I would
>be extremely grateful.

Hello back,
After years of looking for a copy of the first edition of "Suggestive
Inquiry" I found a copy in Manly Hall's library at the Philosophical
Research Society after Manly's death and when I became the new president of
the Society. The copy was published in 1850 by Trelawney Saunders, Charing
Cross, London and contains handwritten corrections of the many typos in the
book, possibly in the hand of Mrs. Atwood. There was a loose sheet of paper
in the book in Manly's handwriting which said, "Mary Anne Atwood (South)
1817. Thomas South. 33 years old when book published. 42 married 1859. Rev.
Alban Atwood. He died 1883. She died 1910 at 92." (Thomas South, of course,
was Mary South's father).

Many of the references in the previous alchemy forum responses to your
post obviously referred to the Wilmshurst second edition which appeared in
1918 and was reissued in 1960 by Julian Press. This edition was authorized
by Mary Atwood after someone threatened to reprint the first edition which
Mary and Thomas South had destroyed several days after its printing,
presumably because too many alchemical secrets had been revealed. Since
discovering the copy of the first edition I have been planning to make a
line by line comparison of the first edition to the second to discover
these "secrets" but have never had the time to do more than start this
project. All of the handwritten notes in the first edition that I was able
to pay attention to referred to simple typographical corrections and
contained nothing of substance. Manly Hall himself evidently believed that
there was no significant difference between the two editions and that the
first edition was withdrawn because of its many, many typographical errors
on just about every page of the first edition.

Mary Atwood wrote nothing after the first edition of "Suggestive
Inquiry" was printed (and then largely destroyed except for a few personal
copies remaining in her possession). However, four years before, in 1846,
she wrote a very interesting thin volume on "Early Magnetism..." Also
surviving at this time are a few pages of an alchemical poem by Thomas
South which was intended as a companion volume to "Suggestive Inquiry."
Thomas South's poem evidently was never completed. Manly Hall's copy was
evidently bought at a London auction but the Philosophical Research
Society, which was formed after Manly had completed collecting the most
important books in his library, doesn't seem to have records of the
auction.

Another possibly fruitful area of research into Mary Atwood (which
research again I began but did not pursue) is to look at the writings of
the people in her small circle of friends, some of whom wrote books
seemingly based on their conversations with Mary Atwood in the years after
1850. In his introduction to the second edition, Wilmhurst (who also wrote
extensively on Masonic history), gives a list of the names of this circle
of friends. I found in the reading room of the New York Public Library
some books by Madam Isabelle de Steiger, for example, one of the circle
mentioned by Wilmshurst, which seemed to expand some ideas given to her by
Mrs. Atwood. In his "Table Talk" notes to the second edition, Wilmhurst
also includes a very complimentary reference by Mrs. Atwood to an 1847 book
by Lorenz Oken titled "Elements of Physiophilosophy." I obtained a copy of
this Oken book and it is indeed quite amazing, a complete catalog of the
elements according to the four element theory done long before the
development of the modern atomic theory of the elements.

There is a wonderful photograph of Mrs. Atwood on page 129 of "Secrets
of the Alchemists," one of the Time-Life Books series on Mysteries of the
Unknown. And, as Adam mentions in his own posting in response to your
question, there is a fictional account of the Atwoods in the Lindsay Clark
novel, The Chymical Wedding. (The Time-Life "Secrets of the Alchemists" on
page 127 also has a photograph of our own Hans Nintzel and a comment about
his tincture of rosemary. And I just noticed tonight in "Secrets of the
Alchemists" something that I had never noticed before because I never have
read that book thoroughly: a mention on the next to last page of my own
adventures with Frater Albertus when I moved to Salt Lake City in 1980 to
study with him).

Just another footnote to this already too-long posting (not that Mrs.
Atwood doesn't deserve the attention; it's just that it's now 2:30am in the
morning and I have to leave the house to go on a trip at 5:30am!). When
Regardie gave me his alchemical library shortly before his death, the only
book he held back was his copy of the second edition of "Suggestive
Inquiry" because, he told me, he still wasn't finished with it (and,
anyway, I did have my own copy of the second edition at the time). Of
course, Regardie based his own early book on alchemy, written before he was
introduced to actual laboratory alchemy by Albertus, on the translated
texts in Atwood.

I am not prepared at this time and at this late hour to write about my
own impressions of the brilliant Atwood book, which I have admired
sufficiently to read from cover to cover at least six times (the first time
with the 16 volume Oxford English Dictionary at hand because it is one of
the most linguistically complex books I have ever encountered). Although
she never evidently did any laboratory work herself, Mrs. Atwood gives one
of the most provocative insights possible into the spiritual work that the
alchemist must do on himself (or herself) to establish communion with the
alchemical lineage and complete the "manual work." And she wasn't an
airy-fairy New Ager speaking about simplistic channeling but a rigorous
scholar with a deep appreciation of the practical side of the ancient
mysteries. For example, she was very excited about the discoveries being
made in her time about the nature of hypnotism (or early magnetism) as a
clue to the nature of the secret Greek mystery initiations although quite
merciless in her criticism of the limited use of hypnotism by modern
hypnotists (a criticism true then in 1850 and still true in 1996!). She
was an amazing woman, one of the most brilliant minds of the last century
and, in my opinion, any work done to further our understanding of her will
be a genuine contribution to our alchemical fraternity. So thank you, Bill,
for posing your questions about her. And Good Night. Cordially, Art Kunkin


Art Kunkin
Publisher and Editor, World Wide Free Press
URL: http://www.wwfreepress.com/
Voice: 310-455-2451 E-Mail: kunkin@cinenet.net
Snail Mail: 115 S. Topanga Canyon Blvd, Suite #166

Topanga, CA 90290, U.S.A.
"It's Never Too Late To Have A Happy Childhood"
(Ask me how!)


Thu Feb 29 12:25:28 1996
Subject: 0345 FRENCH: créer un serveur français

From: chaslin
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 22:26:14 +0100


Chres freres d'Heliopolis,
Je ne sais combien vous =EAtes, etudiants, curieux, adeptes peut-=EAtre =
=E0
rechercher sur l'Internet _cree au fond pour des chercheurs, =E0=
l'origine,
dont les plus tenaces, humbles et patients d'entre nous meritent bien le
qualificatif_ quelque lumiere, justification, ou juste le reconfort, aux
moments, bien reguliers et intenses, o=F9 viennent les doutes et le
decouragement, ou bien ces instants o=F9, pour se delasser sans detend=
re l'arc
de la concentration, l'on vient observer les cheminements des autres. On
peut critiquer la science moderne et certaines de ses emanations=
malsaines,
en tout cas on ne peut que louer le principe de l'Internet.
De tous temps les grands Adeptes ont cherche =E0 communiquer leur savoir,=
m=EAme
parfois =E0 des mecreants , pour entretenir l'idee que notre Art n'est=
point
une chimere.
Il serait bon que les freres francais, dont la contribution historique=
est
immmense et indeniable, et dont l'activite est toujours soutenue, se
retrouvent, en complement de ce site si bien documente, sur un terrain=
plus
familier, compte tenu premierement des difficultes CABBALISITIQUES
supplementaires imposees par la traduction anglaise, d'autre part pour
pouvoir se retrouver physiquement plus aisement, dans le cas o=F9 une
collaboration pratique serait envisagee.
C'est pourquoi nous etudions la possibilite d'ouvrir un site Web=
francais
dedie =E0 l'alchimie, sous la direction d'un Adepte tres erudit,=
dont le r=F4le
se bornerait toutefois =E0 concentrer les informations et =E0 guider ceux=
des
etudiants qui se montreraient =E0 la fois les plus sinceres et les plus
deireux de s'informer. A la maniere du serveur de Mr McLean, ce site
francais serait une collecte d'elements Bilbliographiques en langue
francaise toutefois, et de travaux pratiques, ce que n'assure pas encore=
le
site ecossais, avec eventuellement un forum.
Il nous faut pour cela connaitre le potentiel humain present sur les=
resaux.
Si donc vous pourriez =EAtre interesse(e) par une telle creation,=
envoyez un
simple courrier =E0 Monsieur Luca Finnel, =E0 l'adresse E-mail:
chaslin@world-net.sct.fr
Bien =E0 vous tous,
Luca Finnel


Thu Feb 29 14:06:36 1996
Subject: 0346 "Margaret" Atwood Posts

From: Logodox
Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 06:33:28 -0600


Dear Forum,
Plenty of sites can be found on the WEB for Margaret Atwood...The
20th Century Author.

Mary Anne South Atwood is the correct name of the Author of "Suggestive
Inquiry Into The Hermetic Philosophy" 1851, Reprinted 1910. (19th Century).

Not to nitpick at small differences (Margaret vs Mary) but for those not
well versed in

Alchemical / Spiritual / Mystical literature of centuries past, this
misnomer might
cause some confusion...

Best, Logodox

P.S. Above book is Alchemical Magnum Opus of the 19th Century!

nous ----> logodox@sound.net



Thu Feb 29 20:06:06 1996
Subject: 0347 alchemy and christianity/the mysterium

From: George Randall Leake III
Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 09:44:14 -0600


>LeGrand Cinq-Mars (rjb@u.washington.edu) wrote-->:
>As for Dee (1527-1608) and Bruno (1548-1600) having different lifespans
>because they lived in different periods --

*Lifespans is not the question; persecution is part of it, and
gentle/natural death vs. burning at the stake is the other


Thu Feb 29 20:06:21 1996
Subject: 0348 alchemy and christianity/the mysterium

From: joshua geller
Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 09:01:21 -0800

> LeGrand Cinq-Mars writes:

> This period of enlightened tolerance reached its eirenical climax
> between 1618 and 1648, in one of the truly characteristic triumphs
> of the human spirit.

> As for Dee (1527-1608) and Bruno (1548-1600) having different lifespans
> because they lived in different periods --

if bruno had stayed out of italy, or at least not been so good at
pissing people off, he would not have been burned.

if dee had gone to italy or not been such a diplomatic guy he might
have been burned.

josh


Thu Feb 29 20:06:32 1996
Subject: 0349 FRENCH: Un Adepte ?

From: Gilbert Arnold
Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 12:00:04 -0500


Ayant observe depuis quelque le contenu de ces discussions et votre
effort louable dans le but de former un website francais j'aimerais a votre
attention les points suivants;

1) Une definition d'"Adepte" serait utile.

2) En general, il ya relativement peu de contenu reellement pratique dans
ces discussions. Le seul auteur francais recent qui a ecrit sur des travaux
"pratiques" est Solazaref. Je sais qu'il ya eu LPN mais...

Alors dites-moi, EN TERMES PRATIQUES, qu'avez a offrir a un praticien
qui a deja fait la plupart des travaux decrits dans le Char Triomphal et le
dernier Testament ? Glaser et Glauber ? Avez vous prepare avec succes
le circule mineur d'Urbiger ?

Un petit detail technique; quand vous ecrivez avec les accents, le texte se
traduit drolement par les ordinateurs Nord- Americains.


Thu Feb 29 20:06:43 1996
Subject: 0350 Taoist Pearls

Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 10:46:02 -0500
From: Gilbert Arnold

Another version on how that the Chinese define a "Pearl" is the refined
essence of the 5 Organs. It is then used for projection of consciousness,
healing/martial arts , interaction with earth, interaction with sky and to form
the 'embryo'.