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Alchemy Forum 0501-0550

From January 25th 1996, the Alchemy forum was restructured and the messages were sequentially numbered. This is an unedited extract of messages 501-550.
Go to next 50 messages . Back to forum archive.


Fri Mar 22 11:21:43 1996
Subject: 0501 Dubuis/Frater Albertus (484)

From: Beat Krummenacher
Date: 21 Mar 96 16:24:36 EST


Dear Russ,

you wrote:
>Mr. Dubuis does not agree on some significant points with the methods of
Albertus on acetates. I will say that one point of difference is that Dubuis
feels strongly that the acetate, once prepared, needs to be digested in spirits
of wine, such continuing until all of the free acetic acid is converted to
esters and removed. It is the opinion of Mr. Dubuis, that the acetic acid, if
remaining, is a 'fixing' agent, and prohibits the transfer of energy during the
process.<

This consideration is interesting. Nevertheless this objection seems to me
little to be valid. You may not forget: During the distillation always free
acetic acid emerges. The fixing agent is found in the product, whether one has
removed or not the free acid before by means of spirit of wine.

And why should prevent acetic acid the transfer of energy during the process?

>Mr. Dubuis and I also disagree (in a very good natured way) about some of the
points in the acetate work, and yet we have to agree that the proof is in the
cooking, and not in our beliefs.<

With which points of the acetate work does it deal?

Regards
Lapis


Fri Mar 22 11:22:04 1996
Subject: 0502 What is Magic?

From: Petra Gottlieb
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 1996 15:12:11 +1000


ON BEHALF OF ALEC GATHERCOLE

Magic is simply being able to perform that which was not previously within
our recognised capacity of that which we could accomplish. It is also a
revelation when able to understand something of which the meaning was obscure.
Miracles may not necessarily be great phenomena but rather small increases
to our previous expectations of our capacity, more a noumena, a new
awareness of that which we are able to put into practice.
It is always that new learning, a further evolvement, which will
continuously alchemically grow to become another expression of our true self.
Of course any noumena we become newly aware of is not new as there is
nothing new under the sun. That would be vanity fair. That it is only now
obvious to us may make us a little shameful that we didn't make enough
effort to prepare ourselves to receive this understanding earlier. This is
BINAH sanctified understanding which every revelation comes from.
There are many tools we may use to assist us to be magicians. Each is a
centre on which to focus our attention which may have been spread to far to
be readily refocused on that which requires our full attention. Each
revelation is a centre on which to adjust our focus as this focal point is
immediately behind our next revelation. There is no conjuring trick
involving slight off hand to deceive the eye as that plays no part in
genuine magic.
It is the inner eye or ear that receives our revelation from and by the
grace of Divinity if our focus is correctly adjusted.
Are we ready, willing and able?

Alec. (Paracelsian University)
petrag@iaccess.com.au


Fri Mar 22 11:23:53 1996
Subject: 0503 Alchemy Dream

From: caeilte
Date: Thu, 21 Mar 96 15:03:23 -0800


I had a very profound dream. I think it must of had something to do with
alchemy. I was in a room at the very top of a tall building. The
building was old i.e. brick, wood floors, high ceiling etc. There was a
large table in the middle of the room. On the table was a large septr
type vase. The vase was large and had a spout. The vase was made of a
large emerald that was carved! The window opened and a dove flew in. I
was with an old man with a robe and a long white beard. Although I had
the dream three or four years ago, it is as clear as if it had just
happened in real life!!!

What do you think it means if anything?

Thanks



Fri Mar 22 15:24:56 1996
Subject: 0504 Alchemy Dream

From: "MARGARET MARY-THERESA BROWN, SUNY BUFFALO"

Date: Fri, 22 Mar 1996 09:46:23 -0500 (EST)



>From: caeilte
>Date: Thu, 21 Mar 96 15:03:23 -0800

>I had a very profound dream.

I don't recall ever having a profound dream. The ones I
remember tend to be zany and bizarre.

>I think it must of had something to do with
>alchemy. I was in a room at the very top of a tall building. The
....
>What do you think it means if anything?

If you can't say, no one else can. Sometimes dreams don't mean
anything at all, or the meaning is in how you felt while
dreaming it -- not what you saw.

I once had a dream about a kaballistic salad, which I later
turned into a poem. At the risk of never being taken seriously
as an alchemist or kabalist, here it is...

Feel free to add to this. In fact, please do.

- Peggy -

" One person's gnosis is another's heresy."

*****************************************************************

Kaballistic Salad Dream
or
Ode to an Olive

Dreaming fitfully one night, tossing and a turning,
When before me stood a dreadful sight that put me in delerium.
It was green, and red, and orange too and I was most appalled,
To see before me in true form a kaballistic salad.

YeeHaYeeHa YeeHaYeeHa YeeHaYeeHa Oh! YeeHaYeeHa YeeHaYeeHa YeeHaYeeHa Oh!
To see before me in tru form a kaballistic salad.

The eyes they were of onion, the ears of radish slices,
A nose of green cucumber, and the ears of carrot diced.
But the part I tremble to recall that gave me such a fright was
A mouth made from tomato that looked as though it'd bite!

YeHaVaHe YeHaVaHe YeHaVaHe Ho! YeHaVaHe YeHaVaHe YeHaVaHe Ho!
A mouth made from tomato that looked as though it'd bite!


Fri Mar 22 21:17:41 1996
Subject: 0505 prima materia

From: George Randall Leake III
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 1996 09:27:02 -0600


It seems this has been broached before, but I was wondering if anyone has
ever considered that menstrual blood might be the prima materia? Many
creation myths include accounts of a creation goddess forming humans from a
mixture of clay or earth and menstrual blood, referred to as bloody clay,
or more delicately as red earth.

Consider this quote from Barbara G. Walker's The Woman's Encyclopedia of
Myths and Secrets:

Pliny called menstrual blood "the material substance of
generation," capable of forming "a curd, which afterwards in process
of time quickeneth and groweth to the form of a body."

-G.Leake, 512-471-9117 taliesin@mail.utexas.edu

"To be ignorant of what occurred before you were born is to remain always a
child."
-Cicero
"Oh age! oh letters! It is a joy to be alive!...Woe to you, barbarians!"
-Ulrich von Hutten, 1518, Poet Laureate of the German Empire


Fri Mar 22 21:20:10 1996
Subject: 0506 What is Magic?

From: George Randall Leake III
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 1996 10:27:48 -0600


>From: Petra Gottlieb
>ON BEHALF OF ALEC GATHERCOLE
>Alec. (Paracelsian University) wrote-->

>Magic is simply being able to perform that which was not previously within
>our recognised capacity of that which we could accomplish.

*Isn't this too general of a definition? Wouldn't this include all kinds of
technology which has nothing to do with magic? What about the difference
between low magic and high magic, i.e. is it being performed with the
intention of personal gain of some sort or for the union of the soul with
the divine?

>It is also a
>revelation when able to understand something of which the meaning was obscure.

*sounds like the definition from the dictionary

>Miracles may not necessarily be great phenomena but rather small increases
>to our previous expectations of our capacity, more a noumena, a new
>awareness of that which we are able to put into practice.

*huh? How does this follow?

>It is always that new learning, a further evolvement, which will
>continuously alchemically grow to become another expression of our true self.

*these platitudes seem so general

>Of course any noumena we become newly aware of is not new as there is
>nothing new under the sun. That would be vanity fair. That it is only now
>obvious to us may make us a little shameful that we didn't make enough
>effort to prepare ourselves to receive this understanding earlier. This is
>BINAH sanctified understanding which every revelation comes from.

*this part seems more reasonable

>There are many tools we may use to assist us to be magicians. Each is a
>centre on which to focus our attention which may have been spread to far to
>be readily refocused on that which requires our full attention. Each
>revelation is a centre on which to adjust our focus as this focal point is
>immediately behind our next revelation. There is no conjuring trick
>involving slight off hand to deceive the eye as that plays no part in
>genuine magic.
>It is the inner eye or ear that receives our revelation from and by the
>grace of Divinity if our focus is correctly adjusted.

*whew! I was starting to worry there for a moment...all this makes more
sense, but to what end one wonders?


-G.Leake, 512-471-9117 taliesin@mail.utexas.edu

"To be ignorant of what occurred before you were born is to remain always a
child."
-Cicero
"Oh age! oh letters! It is a joy to be alive!...Woe to you, barbarians!"
-Ulrich von Hutten, 1518, Poet Laureate of the German Empire


Sat Mar 23 16:54:19 1996
Subject: 0507 prima materia

From: al4302


Menstrual blood has many applications is the world of
natural magic but it is not the Prima Materia. The clue
is given by the Pelican who feeds it's young on it's
OWN blood, this implys growth, if you want PM for the
wet way, PM that partakes of Mercurial qualitys. If
you want PM for the Dry way it must Partake of Salt and
does not invole blood in any way. If one has completed
the work and wishes to do it again then there is a third
which partakes of Sulphur.
At the end of the day you do not have much choice it is
aa matter of fate.
See: Christian at tbe Cross Roads in the Chmyical Wedding
on adams site.



>It seems this has been broached before, but I was wondering if anyone has
>ever considered that menstrual blood might be the prima materia? Many
>creation myths include accounts of a creation goddess forming humans from a
>mixture of clay or earth and menstrual blood, referred to as bloody clay,
>or more delicately as red earth.
>
>Consider this quote from Barbara G. Walker's The Woman's Encyclopedia of
>Myths and Secrets:
>
>Pliny called menstrual blood "the material substance of
>generation," capable of forming "a curd, which afterwards in process
>of time quickeneth and groweth to the form of a body."
>
>-G.Leake, 512-471-9117 taliesin@mail.utexas.edu


Sat Mar 23 16:56:02 1996
Subject: 0508 Dubuis / Frater Albertus

From: legnef
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 08:42:30 -0500


Written in a previous message:

> >Mr. Dubuis does not agree on some significant points with the methods of
> Albertus on acetates. I will say that one point of difference is that Dubuis
> feels strongly that the acetate, once prepared, needs to be digested in spirits
> of wine, such continuing until all of the free acetic acid is converted to
> esters and removed.

Please accept this as possible input regarding Albertus/Acetates/Spirit of
Wine:

There was a private experiment performed in the PRS Lab from January
through March in 1975 specifically for and under the supervision of
Albertus. The experiment originally involved acetates of Potassium,
Magnesium, Aluminum, Sodium, and Zink. The above were put through a
process using ethanol which involved seperation using extraters, low heat
calcination, maseration, and reverberation. Fractional distillation was
performed at a point and acid was distilled off seperate. The Magnesium
acetate became the center of the experiment (work on the rest was stopped)
as the magnesium acetate was the first or only one that "decayed". The
process eventually ended up utilizing a retort in a sand bath. The
contents of the retort,ie- magnesium salts, oily substance, and enhanced
ethanol were eventually shipped to Albertus in Europe where he was teaching
in 1975. What happened to the stuff after that is unknown to me.

This is only mentioned since ethanol was involved with this process which
did involve acetates. This may be totally off the subject, if so, please
accept my apology.

I seek no responses but if there are any please keep them simple as my
knowledge of the subject matter is very limited and I am not currently
involved with labratory work, nor plan to be.

Thank You


Sat Mar 23 16:58:21 1996
Subject: 0509 What is magic?

From: Paul Bartscher
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 96 08:20:47 MST


Magic (or magick for that matter) is merely the ability to understand and
manipulate the laws of nature at a level more advanced than the average
person. The path of magic is an agressive one- the key word in my definition
is MANIPULATE- the use of one's own will and intent to create the non-ordinary.
Therefore, concepts such as "the grace of Divinity" have no place here. The
devotional path of waiting for inspiriation from above is a valid one, but
is too passive to be called magic.
Nature seeks a balance in all things- the magician seeks to use this
tendency to manipulate Nature into a desired reaction. If the magician puts
a great deal of energy into one side of Nature's balance, Nature will react
in a predictable manner, whether the operating magician is working on a
talisman, a voodoo doll, alchemy, or any other operation involving such laws.
As for "high" and "low" magic- if it all operates according to the same
laws, such adjectives are merely the value judgements of a society still too
tied to the restrictive morality of the mediaeval Christians. As we've
discussed before, good and evil are two sides of the same coin, and, as
Eliphas Levi says, "Michael (the archangel) needs the devil as a statue
needs a pedestal".
G.Leake brings up the point of intent- to wit, is the magic being
performed with the intention of personal gain, or for union with the divine?
Union with the divine IS personal gain, regardless of how lofty a goal it
may seem to be. The great Tibetan sage Tarthang Tulku, expressing in modern
times an age-old Eastern idea, warns us of the dangers of what he calls
spiritual materialism- the clinging of the soul to the longing for the
divine. Ultimately, all attachments must fall away- the longing for money,
better sex, nicer cars, AND divine union. That last one is the most
difficult and the most important.



Strength & Wisdom,
Paul & Micah


Sun Mar 24 12:46:07 1996
Subject: 0510 Thanks for responses to my question on the hand

From: Claire Sherman
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 12:11:46 -0500 (EST)


Thanks to all who responded to my request for representations of
alchemical hands. I was able to find the 1667 and 1773 editions of Johann
Isaacus Hollandus, "The Hand of the Philosophers." I am very grateful to
Maury for having translated the relevant portion of the text. An
excellent reproduction of the illustration in question forms the
frontispiece of Stanislas Kosslowski de Rola's "Le Jeu d'Or," published
in English as "The Golden Game." This book has a rich corpus of
illustrated alchemical text.

I was also able to find the print and manuscript versions of "The Hand of
the Philosophers" in the Mellon Collection at Yale's Beinecke Library.
The first is no. 157 (1773 edition) in Vol. 2 of the catalogue; the
second is no. 106 in vol. 4, an Italian translation of the text
with an illustration on p. 616.

Last year at a Christie's sale of books from the Bute collection a 17th
c. English manuscript of alchemical texts that belonged first to William
Backhouse and then most probably to Elias Ashmole,
including "The Hand of the Philosophers," had a watercolor illustration
related to the printed text. A modern drawing appears in Manly P. Hall's
"An Encyclopedic Outline of Masonic, Hermetic, Qabbalistic and
Rosicrucian Symbolic Philosophy," although the source is not given.

Again, thanks for the information. My interest in the subject arises from
a larger project on "The Inscribed Hand as a Cognitive Map in Medieval
and Renaissance Visual Culture."

Claire Sherman csherman@cpcug.org


Sun Mar 24 12:46:23 1996
Subject: 0511 Representations of hands with alchemical symbols

From: leslie grollman
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 12:28:01 -0700

>From: Maury
----cut-----
' This is sufficient about the seven secret signs of the philosophers.'

ah, dear sir, your post has whet my appetite!
where can i obtain more info?

thanks.
leslie


Sun Mar 24 12:46:34 1996
Subject: 0512 What is magic?

From: William Smith
Date: 23 Mar 1996 11:28:01 GMT


"Magic is merely the release of power through an efficient form by an act of
will. . . . Magic thus understood, differs from age to age according to the
focalization of the Races's will and desire" ----Dane Rudhyar, Art as Release
of Power (Oceano, Calif. 1929), p. 1.


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Sun Mar 24 12:46:43 1996
Subject: 0513 Alchemy Dream

From: Marjorie F. Fowler
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 10:59:42 GMT


At 11:33 AM 3/22/96 +0000, Alchemy forum wrote:
>From: caeilte
>Date: Thu, 21 Mar 96 15:03:23 -0800
>
>
>I had a very profound dream. I think it must of had something to do with
>alchemy. I was in a room at the very top of a tall building. The
>building was old i.e. brick, wood floors, high ceiling etc. There was a
>large table in the middle of the room. On the table was a large septr
>type vase. The vase was large and had a spout. The vase was made of a
>large emerald that was carved! The window opened and a dove flew in. I
>was with an old man with a robe and a long white beard. Although I had
>the dream three or four years ago, it is as clear as if it had just
>happened in real life!!!
>
>What do you think it means if anything?
>
>Thanks
>
Some dreams can be profound; the images may stay with the individual for a
lifetime. Generally, dreams experienced prior to waking address new
directions or issues concerned with one's life-path. (Those dreamed earlier
in the sleep period usually result from the occurrences of the previous day
and are the unconscious' effort to work through what was encountered.)

Alchemy is more oriented to an individual's conscious efforts concerning
spiritual growth and enrichment. Although every alchemist undoubtedly turns
to the subconscious and super-conscious for inspiration and assistance.

Your dream has some elements that others have encountered also. For
example, being in the uppermost chamber of a building suggests the highest
point which can be attained at a point of time and space. That the room is
spartan--"wood floors, brick"--suggests more an intellectual than a material
theme. The grey-haired, wise old man is an archetype for a spiritual guide
that many have encountered. The old man in your dream "with a robe" (do you
mean "in"?) may represent this archetype or be a magician or your own older,
wiser, more experienced self who will function to guide you along your path
to becoming greater and/or more masterful. The table in the middle of the
room suggests to me the table at which the Magician in the Tarot stands; it
may mean something different to you. The dove suggests divine or spiritual
inspiration, or transformation.

In the final analysis, you are the only one who can interpret the dream in a
way that has meaning for you. I suggest you investigate the symbolism of
the Tarot, and look at some of the books on dreams written about Edgar Cayce.

One final word, for some reason, the emerald vase reminds me strongly of
Hermes Trimegistus' "Emerald Tablet."

M. Farkas Fowler


Sun Mar 24 12:46:52 1996
Subject: 0514 What is magic?

From: KEEPERH2O@aol.com
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 03:35:31 -0500


A Response to the posting of Paul Bartscher
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 96 08:20:47 MST

Dear Paul,

I read your response to the question, "What is Magic?" and felt something
like a cold wind run through me; true, in the sense that it likely reflects
your experience -- and it raised my eyebrows -- but cold in that it misses
some of the 'warmer' assumptions -- yes, I will (summoning courage) call them
that -- derived of my own. Read on all ye and determine that which rings
true here!

You assert,
>Magic (or magick for that matter) is merely the ability to understand and manipulate the laws of nature at a level more advanced than the average person.<

May I provide that I would hesitate to use a word such as 'merely'
to define anything approaching the artform and science and pinch of pure
wonder that it is and must be to sustain. Maybe I am too much in awe of the
'powers' but I have had results enough already to sustain me for a lifetime
with a full measure of true Faith and a chest of yarns to match the Spielberg
in us all.

Yes, >The path of magic is an agressive one< in so far as it takes an act of
will, if that, in itself may be rightly termed aggressive, for without proper
balance of active and passive principles you will likely "MANIPULATE" youself
into a terrible and costly mistake. You can rip a rose off the bush or you
can gently snip it, so, and gratefully place it in your vase. If you do not
allow for "concepts such as "the grace of Divinity"' in your actions in the
Sacred Space you may well lack the humility, poise and circumspection that is
inherant in (I'll say it) TRUE, Theurgic Practice. As so much of Magic is a
question of Timing, there is a time when we must wait; when we must have the
inspiration you acknowledge as valid but may dismiss as "too passive to be
called magic". Do you ever ask for permission? If you haven't, try it. And
then wait for it. New wonders and Knowing will open to you.

High Magic is a partnership of Powers. All the groundwork must be laid to
engage those powers in proper proportion. I decided long ago the whole issue
is so complex it is impossible to be aware of every contingency. Whatever
previous experience, study, preparation and trustworthy companions that may
bolster our beginning, all we have is our self-confidence, good faith, our
persistance and our love to bear us through some occasionally, fairly dark
and unknown places. We individuals in Convocation are NOT the only
consciousness! Without That which is beyond our individuality our strivings
are without merit or the blessing of Nature (which is anything but
"predictable"). What differentiates "High" and "Low" then, is so much more
than residual medieval Christian value judgements. Good grief, man!
Acknowledging the laws that exist for both "High" and "Low" to avail, what
are your MOTIVES?!!! How far do you think one can go on a path of personal
aggrandizement, selfishness and disrespect? There is no comparison, sir! It
is like you would match the patricians among us with scum. Sure, we all
breath the same air, eat and excrete, but of what Quality is that? Yes,
Michael needs Satan as the DEA needs drug lords. Surely you know Union
implys resolution of the paradox of opposites? No, Union with the Divine is
NOT personal gain! Nor will Divinity manifest to the indifferent (generally
speaking, as I would not imply to limit Divinity). Divine Union is the
worthy achievement of Everyman, for when one of us rises he bears us All, and
what he gains he returns as selfless service to his SELF.

Respectfully submitted,

Keeper
Love & Light!


Sun Mar 24 17:39:07 1996
Subject: 0515 Kabbalistic salad dream

From: Michal Pober
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 13:48:59 +0100


> Kaballistic Salad Dream
> or
> Ode to an Olive
>
>Dreaming fitfully one night, tossing and a turning,
> When before me stood a dreadful sight that put me in delerium.
>It was green, and red, and orange too and I was most appalled,
> To see before me in true form a kaballistic salad.
>
>YeeHaYeeHa YeeHaYeeHa YeeHaYeeHa Oh! YeeHaYeeHa YeeHaYeeHa YeeHaYeeHa Oh!
> To see before me in tru form a kaballistic salad.
>
>The eyes they were of onion, the ears of radish slices,
> A nose of green cucumber, and the ears of carrot diced.
>But the part I tremble to recall that gave me such a fright was
> A mouth made from tomato that looked as though it'd bite!
>
>YeHaVaHe YeHaVaHe YeHaVaHe Ho! YeHaVaHe YeHaVaHe YeHaVaHe Ho!
> A mouth made from tomato that looked as though it'd bite!


This sounds like one of Arcimboldo's paintings. A. was an Italian painter
who frequented the court of Rudolf II, who was one of his subjects, As far
as I know were all represented by multitudes of fruits and veggies,
cornucopia-style..
I'm minded to pass this information back at this moment in time, because on
April 1st (honestly) there will open here in Prague, on Truhlarska Street,
in the Old Town, a restaurant with the name Arcimboldo. I'll be telling you
more of what's happening in Prague, which is a lot, before long; perhaps
something about the menu items...

michal


Sun Mar 24 17:39:17 1996
Subject: 0516 M.A.Atwood

From: Clinton R. Armitage
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 08:44:20 -0500


Posting # 0493 on March 19 by Maury could use some further attention:

> Alchemistic literature
>began to degenerate in the 17th century and it practically came to an end in
>the 18th century. With a few exceptions, the treatises became more and more
>worthless in the age of enlightenment. Though the literature of alchemy
>ceased in a direct form, alchemistic ideas continued to produce after
>effects, f.i., the second part of Goethe's "Faust,".............


>I have
>read the book [*A Suggestive Inquiry into the Hermetic Mysteries*], and I saw
>no particular reason why it should have been either burnt or preserved from
>oblivion. It is by no means unintelligent but she certainly does not betray
>any mysteries. It is really, in common with most alchemistic treatises, an
>attempt to say what the author does not know; and that is always interesting,
>because things come out which are unknown to the writer. It is extremely
>intuitive and emotional, and it was written by an overflowing unconscious.

................................................

Regarding George Washington Carvers work with the peanut:

In an article in the New York Times it was noted that he had told an
audience that he relied little on contemporary books for help. Then the
reporter took Carver to task, suggesting that Carver was filled with
superstition because he talked of godly inspiration. In a letter to the
Times Carver responded, "I regret that such a gross misunderstanding should
arise as to what was meant by divine inspiration. Inspiration is not at
variance with information, in fact the more information one has, the greater
will be the inspiration. In evolving new creations, I am wondering of what
value a book would be to the creator if he is not a master of analytical
work, both qualitive and quantitative. I know of no one who has worked with
these roots in this way. I know of no book from which I can get this
information, yet I will have no trouble in doing it. Proverbs 3:6 says, 'In
all ways acknowledge Him and He shall direct thy paths.'... ."
......................................

For myself, I have not been concerned with whether or not a particular
author speaks with the authority of "knowing". How could I sit in judgement
on something I did not know myself? I have absorbed what was said to the
best of my ability and let the "God within" do the work. It has served me well.

For me, "ideas" are important, not the source.


Sun Mar 24 17:39:27 1996
Subject: 0517 What is magic?

From: Paul Bartscher
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 96 09:09:36 MST


Dear Keeper,
Our posting is not only a reflection of our own work done in some small,
dark room somewhere, but a reflection of those from whom we have learned,
alive and otherwise, in person and in print.
One of the effects of the New Age current of thought so pervasive in modern
esotericism is the confusion of magick with mysticism. The New Age movement,
as with the Christian religion it seeks to replace, is making an effort to
tame and sanitize all things magickal, into one big system of easy gain and
warm feelings. One only has to study magicians writing as recently as the
1950's to see the ancient current of magick- cold chills and all.
You assert a lack of understanding on our part of the proper balance of
active and passive- but, as we said in our first posting, this balance is
the basis of all of our work. By pushing a pendulum in one direction, a
swing in the other direction is caused, creating a, yes, predictable, flow
of energy. In this flow, the pendulum passes its point of balance, arriving
at an imbalance which can be directed by the art of the magician. It is
possible to "be aware of every contingency", and to prepare accordingly. The
inability to do so results from lack of understanding or preparation,
laziness, the breaking of the flow of the will, and a number of other faults
we all are prone to. When this happens, it is more productive to term it a
lesson than a "terrible and costly mistake".
As for permission- permission implies the existence of a higher being that
the operator feels obligated to answer to. We do believe in the existence of
higher powers than ourselves, however, asking and waiting for permission has
more to do with religious devotion than magick. Even the Eastern
practitioners of Bhakti Yoga, a devotional practice along these lines,
acknowledge that Raja Yoga, a more magickal path of personal power, is the
higher, though more demanding, of the two.
Magick is an art form, not a religion. While devotion may be a useful tool,
it is not the art. An artist uses many tools- paint, canvas, paintbrush, his
hand, but ultimately, the art is none of these things. An artist is not
required to ask for permission to create his masterpiece- he considers his
desire to create and his ability to do so all the permission needed.
As to motives such as "personal aggrandizement, selfishness, and
disrespect", each of us must decide for ourselves what our motives are. It
is the direction of the will, not the purity of intent, that causes magickal
effects. We have our own motives, which you cannot suppose to comprehend
based merely on our posting and your interpretation of it.
Seeking divine union in order to "bear us All" upwards is not the
universal, ultimate goal that New Age philosophers would have us believe.
Even within the seemingly ( to westerners ) altruistic religion of Buddhism,
there are veins such as Hinayana and Vajrayana, that emphasize each person's
responsibility to enlighten and raise himself and no other. As we said, we
all have to seek our own motives, and be wary of imposing them on others.
In an attempt to bring this around to the intent of this forum, we would
say the following: as we consider magick to be an art, so also is alchemy.
Alchemy is often reduced to the lifeless reproduction of formulas and
techniques, no different than chemistry. When the arts of magick and alchemy
are combined, one arrives at the true Royal Art of the ancients.

A note to Adam,
While these recent postings on magick seem to be only tangentially related
to the alchemical purpose of this forum, we see this philosophy to be the
basis of our work. We appreciate the opportunity to discuss alchemy on all
of its levels, even those not directly related to physical laboratory
practice. Thank you for providing such a forum.

Strength & Wisdom,
Paul & Micah


Sun Mar 24 17:39:37 1996
Subject: 0518 What is magic?

From: OISPEGGY
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 07:08:28 -0500 (EST)


Paul & Micah

>Ultimately, all attachments must fall away- the longing for money,
>better sex, nicer cars, AND divine union. That last one is the most
>difficult and the most important.

Why must these longings go? "Give to god that which is god's and
caesar that which is caesar's."

IMO saying that all longings must go could also be caused by
moralistic, christian influenced thinking.

I can see where obsession with these things, or too much importance placed
on them, would interfere with the great work. But tooling around
in a nice (but noin a nice (but not ridiculous) car -- say a 1aving
good sex -- I don't see where that is a problem. At least not a
problem I would mind having.

IMO any judgements should be based on effective vs. ineffective. I
fail to see where a car and sex need have any effect at all on the
great work. In fact they might help because you have to drive to
the store to buy materials and sex helps rejunvenate the body and spirit.

- Peggy -


Mon Mar 25 09:16:55 1996
Subject: 0519 What is magic?

From: Gilbert Arnold
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 16:12:03 -0500


I would like to thank Mr.William Smith for giving us the following definition;

"Magic is merely the release of power through an efficient form by an act of
will. . . . Magic thus understood, differs from age to age according to the
focalization of the Races's will and desire" ----Dane Rudhyar, Art as
Release of Power (Oceano, Calif. 1929), p. 1.

There is obviously many possible definitions of Magic; I would say the
above would explain types of magic that predominate in a given
social/political context but that beyond and/or within the "Races's will and
desire" there is the individual's that contribute the many definitions we have
seen posted on this subject, some of which lay the seed for further
development.


Blessings,


+Gilbert


Mon Mar 25 09:18:05 1996
Subject: 0520 What is magic?

From: Barry Carter
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 12:38:55 +0000


Dear Peggy,

> >Ultimately, all attachments must fall away- the longing for money,
> >better sex, nicer cars, AND divine union. That last one is the most
> >difficult and the most important.
>
> Why must these longings go? "Give to god that which is god's and
> caesar that which is caesar's."
>
> IMO saying that all longings must go could also be caused by
> moralistic, christian influenced thinking.

Words change and meanings get distorted as time passes. Alchemical
texts must be read by people who are doing the work before they make
sense, whether they are refering to chemistry or the things of the
heart.

The Bhagavad Gita talks about action without attachment to
the fruits of action. The I Ching says:

Mountains standing close together:
The image of KEEPING STILL.
Thus the superior man
Does not permit his thoughts
To go beyond his situation
The heart thinks constantly. This cannot be changed, but the
movements of the heart--that is, a man's thoughts--should restrict
themselves to the immediate situation. All thinking that goes beyond
this only makes the heart sore.

The Buddha said that suffereing is caused by attachment. Jesus said:

Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye
shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye
shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than
raiment? . . . seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his
righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. Take
therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take
thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the
evil thereof.

These are all expressions of the spiritual understanding that
attachment leads to suffering. Put in another way, using modern
terms, we could say addiction leads to suffering. If we define
addiction as wanting something so badly that we would hurt others to
get it, we can see the connection to the law of karma.

It is fashionable in our culture to use the word "need" to justify
what we want. If you need something then it is thought to be harder
for your suppliers to refuse you. NEED IS A DECISION TO SUFFER.
Need by definition means that if you don't get what you need,
something bad will happen. Need is like an attempt to blackmail God,
others or yourself into giving you what you want.

It is ok to want. Want is not usually an emotion backed demand. I
want to eat today but I don't need to eat for another forty days.
Too often we justify hurting others with our urgency.

Fasting is a great teacher. Fasting teaches us how to direct our thoughts
where we want them to go. If we think about food while we fast, it
makes the fast that much more difficult. Edgar Cayce said "Thoughts
are things and they have the power of things". Jane Roberts said
"You create your own reality, there is no other law". In alchemy the
interaction between the thoughts and the process is direct and
provides immediate feedback. If the attention is distracted by
addictions it becomes impossible to move with the material.

I don't think we must give up sex or cars or Divine Union. We must
give up our addiction to these things. As T.S. Eliot said, it is "the
purification of desire on the ground of our beseaching".


Barry Carter
Blue Mountain Native Forest Alliance
Voice 541-523-3357
Fax 541-523-9438

Insanity is doing the same thing
and expecting different results.


Mon Mar 25 14:22:09 1996
Subject: 0521 Red Earth


From: Petra Gottlieb
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 17:39:52 +1000



In reference to George's wondering

>>if menstrual blood might be the prima materia, <<

I am inclined to say: yes. For any EGG "NOT" FERTILISED returns to MOTHER
NATURE without further development, becoming the " kaput mortum", "mater
confusa" (chaos) again, a "MATERIAL" substance (red earth) to start another
evolution until ripe, mature to be fertilised.
Nature brings it up to the "flower", but it is the "bee" (by pollination)
that makes the next step of evolution possible >> that of the "fruit".
For it is written: 'Then the Lord God formed man of dust from the ground,
and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living
being. (Genesis 2,7). Described here are TWO processes: The "FORMING"
(whereby the long chain of evolution exactly in accordance to the laws of
nature [which are the expressions of the Will of God] from the first cell to
the highest developed ANIMAL is meant), and the "ANIMATION", (which is the
INCARNATION of SPIRIT on earth for the first time after a long period of
evolution).

This knowledge I obtained from the book: "IN THE LIGHT OF TRUTH"
'THE GRAIL MESSAGE' by Abd-ru-shin (Oskar Ernst Bernhardt)
Vol. II/3 "The Creation of Man" ( URL: http://www.aone.net.au/grail ).









Mon Mar 25 14:22:18 1996
Subject: 0522 Representations of hands with alchemical symbols

From: Josh
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 21:53:49 -0800


>Again, thanks for the information. My interest in the subject arises from
>a larger project on "The Inscribed Hand as a Cognitive Map in Medieval
>and Renaissance Visual Culture."
>
>Claire Sherman csherman@cpcug.org


Here's another reference which may be useful, from Rabbi Nachman of
Bratslav. It's from his kabbalistic tale "The Master of Prayer" (Paulist
Press, 1978; "The Tales," Nachman of Bratslav, transl. Arnold J. Band). The
tale was given to his disciples very early in the 1800's, so it's not
strictly within your time frame -- but his sources may be older, and in any
case it's completely fascinating, in my opinion one of the most striking
images in all his tales.

The main passage dealing with the hand begins like this:

"At the palace of the King with whom I stayed was a hand, that is, there was
a picture of a hand with five fingers and with all the lines which are on a
hand. And this hand was a map of all the worlds. And everything which has
been from the Creation of the heavens and the earth until the end of time,
and what will be afterwards was drawn on that hand. A drawing of the
position of each and every world with all its details was drawn in the lines
of the hand, as it is drawn on a map. And there were letters on the lines
just as there are letters written on a map next to each item so that one may
know what that item is.... [More details follow on the kinds of things and
correspondences to be found in the hand.] And because of this I knew how to
enter this city which is impossible for any man to enter..."

It may be that this magical hand is intended as an image of the Torah; the
five fingers of the hand may correspond to the five books of the Torah.

Good luck in your researches -- I'm looking forward to seeing what you come
up with.

/jcs


Mon Mar 25 14:22:31 1996
Subject: 0523 Alchemy Dream

From: al4302
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 01:00:27 +0100


>From: Marjorie F. Fowler
>Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 10:59:42 GMT

>>I had a very profound dream...

As the Philosophers have always said "while sleeping watch"



Tue Mar 26 10:07:14 1996
Subject: 0524 Red Earth

From: Pat Zalewski
Date: Tue, 26 Mar 96 07:29 NZST


>Petra

AS for the red earth or Adamic clay as it sometimes called. I think it is
human cellular tissue. Be it blood or anything else. As for the biblical
reference in genesis , I am sticking to the theme that ET did it! Not
exactly alchemic though.

Pat zalewski


Tue Mar 26 10:10:46 1996
Subject: 0525 Alchemy Dream

From: Steve Rosen
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 15:37:59


> I had a very profound dream. I think it must of had something to do with
> alchemy. I was in a room at the very top of a tall building. The
> building was old i.e. brick, wood floors, high ceiling etc. There was a
> large table in the middle of the room. On the table was a large septr
> type vase. The vase was large and had a spout. The vase was made of a
> large emerald that was carved! The window opened and a dove flew in. I
> was with an old man with a robe and a long white beard. Although I had
> the dream three or four years ago, it is as clear as if it had just
> happened in real life!!!
>
> What do you think it means if anything?

The vase with the spout brings to mind the hermetic vessel.

Steve Rosen


Tue Mar 26 10:10:54 1996
Subject: 0526 M.A. Atwood

From: John Obrien
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 14:34:02 -0600 (CST)


> From: Diane Munoz
>
> But isn't it possible that the decision was made FOR the South's in that
> throughout the ages this material has been suppressed by those in"
> authority". Anytime anything of this nature was made freely public it was
> destroyed, as were the schools that taught it, particularly in the Middle

Diane makes a good point.


Tue Mar 26 10:11:04 1996
Subject: 0527 alchemical music

From: Coulombe Patrice
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 19:43:45 -0500 (EST)


I am a music composer and I am very interested in alchemical studies.
So,I need some information about music in alchemy. Is there alchemical
music as there are alchemical books? Are you aware of examples of music
which explain by allegories or by musical techniques the steps of the
alchemical process? Is it possible to make alchemical music? Are there musician
alchemists? Is there music in the alchemical repertoire?

If someone has some interesting information for me (books,
references,) please send it to me by the forum or by a private e-mail.

Sincerely and fraternally
Patrice Coulombe (coulomp@ere.umontreal.ca)
Quebec,Canada


Tue Mar 26 10:11:14 1996
Subject: 0528 What is magic?

From: Jason Johns
Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 00:49:48 PST


Barry Wrote :

> I don't think we must give up sex or cars or Divine Union. We must
> give up our addiction to these things. As T.S. Eliot said, it is "the
> purification of desire on the ground of our beseaching".

Perfectly true there Barry, that is what I am currently working on.

When eating a bar of chocolate or whatever, it must be due to
conscious choice, and not habit / addiction.

Every action you take should be a conscious choice!

Regards

Jason


Tue Mar 26 13:45:25 1996
Subject: 0529 advice on LPN

Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 07:46:08 -0600
From: Roy M. Liuzza


First, an apology for a topic which I'm sure has been covered before; I'm
new to this forum and, to be honest, to this whole idea.

I've recently become determined to learn more about alchemy and
hermetic philosophy in a more-than-academic way, but I'm not sure where to
turn for advice. An organization called The Philosophers of Nature offers
what seems to be a 'correspondence course' in basic theory and practice. If
anyone has had experience with them, I'd appreciate their opinion or a
description of their experience; reply privately or in this forum.

Thank you,

Roy Liuzza
rliuzza@mailhost.tcs.tulane.edu


Tue Mar 26 13:47:05 1996
Subject: 0530 Red Earth

From: al4302
Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 12:04:11 +0100


Have you considered cinnabar?


>AS for the red earth or Adamic clay as it sometimes called. I think it is
>human cellular tissue. Be it blood or anything else. As for the biblical
>reference in genesis , I am sticking to the theme that ET did it! Not
>exactly alchemic though.
>
>Pat zalewski


Tue Mar 26 16:53:51 1996
Subject: 0531 alchemical music

Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 01:43:39 +0900
From: Shinmei Suzuki


Dear Patrice

>I am a music composer and I am very interested in alchemical studies. So,I
>need some information about music in alchemy. Is there alchemical music as
>there are alchemical books? Are you aware of examples of music which explain
>by allegories or by musical techniques the steps of the alchemical process? Is
>it possible to make alchemical music? Are there musician alchemists? Is there
>music in the alchemical repertoire?

I recommend the next book regarding alchemical music and mystical music.

Joscelyn Godwin

HARMONIES OF HEAVEN AND EARTH
The spiritual dimension of music from antiquity to the avant-garde
(1987, THAMES AND HUDSON LTD., LONDON)


Sincerely Yours,

Shinmei Suzuki
(visual artist, sound performer)
chemiart@super.win.or.jp


Tue Mar 26 18:35:12 1996
Subject: 0532 alchemical music

From: joshua geller
Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 08:54:03 -0800


> From: Coulombe Patrice
> Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 19:43:45 -0500 (EST)

> I am a music composer and I am very interested in alchemical studies.
> So,I need some information about music in alchemy. Is there alchemical
> music as there are alchemical books?

try 'atalanta fugiens' by michael maier.

josh


Tue Mar 26 20:42:18 1996
Subject: 0533 An Alchemical Omen?

From: Patrick J. Smith
Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 11:27:05 -0700


Yesterday, after several days of storms, the skies cleared in the Salt
Lake City area, and last night, with a cold wind blowing away the
atmospheric debris, I was finally able to get a clear view of the
comet. To the unaided eye, it appeared as a fuzzy, out-of-focuss
star, recalling the ancient meaning of the word comet---hairy, and
Aristotle's explanation as an exhalation of the upper atmosphere.
Through binoculars, part of the tail was visible, which became clearer
after the moon had set. The comet was like an apparition or
spectre---ghostly, silent, and awe inspiring.

To the chaotic world of the ancient Greek philosophers, the
orderliness of the heavens was a reassuring sight, and so the
unexpected appearance of a comet was a sign of some disordering
influence in the realm of the gods. Hence, by the law of
correspondence, a comet was also a portent of disorder in the human
realm---earthquakes, famines, plagues, wars. It was also sometimes
taken as an omen of the death of a king. And so these appearances
have been recorded for thousands of years.

Alchemy has, since its beginnings, been strongly influenced by the
ancient law of correspondence. Especially to early alchemists, the
changes that took place within their vessels were connected in some
mysterious way with the events in the skies---eclipses, favourable
conjunctions, and so forth. The `death of a king' also has a clear
alchemical meaning: the dissolution of the metallic body of gold into
its first matter, which was the first priciple stage of the Work.
Thus, the appearance of this comet could be taken as a sign in the
skies that now is a favourable time to begin.

-Patrick


Wed Mar 27 09:15:21 1996
Subject: 0534 alchemical music

From: Gilbert Arnold
Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 15:58:35 -0500


Atlanta Fugiens was recorded.


Wed Mar 27 09:15:32 1996
Subject: 0535 alchemical music

From: dan hill
Date: Tue, 26 Mar 96 15:02:42 CST

Mozart's Magic Flute is an example. Pythagoras's music of the spheres is another good example of mystical or alchemical interpretation of music. You might also note that Gurdjief had a theory of music as well.


...ave,


Wed Mar 27 09:15:42 1996
Subject: 0536 alchemical music

From: chaslin
Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 22:57:09 +0100


>From: Coulombe Patrice=20
>Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 19:43:45 -0500 (EST)
>
>
> I am a music composer and I am very interested in alchemical studies.
>So,I need some information about music in alchemy.

I would suggest you to study the texts of Wagner's Ring. The tetralogie is
full of alchemical allegories. (the conquest of gold, the fire, the language
of birds, and so on...)
Wagner was initiated in diverses secret societies, but was probabely not
directly an alchemist. Music is an aspect of the process wich leads to the
stone, but applicated to an other matter. The real genius, the real
inspiration is a sort of stone, and Mozart or Bach could be considered like
high gradueted Adepts, like accomplished alchemists in their domain.
I am a musician also, but I study Alchemy as a specific matter, I don't try
to connect it more than the nature already connected things together.=
Sincerly,
Frederic


Wed Mar 27 09:15:57 1996
Subject: 0537 advice on LPN

Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 16:53:33 -0500
From: Gilbert Arnold


The PON (LPN) course in Plant Spagyrics will teach you, among other
things, about many useful elements, including one way to volatilize
vegetable Salts and a good introduction to Lab safety.

PON also carries information about the RAMS collection and Kessinger
publications and other publishers; these are exellent sources of traditional
writings. They are also open minded. samples of their publication "The
Stone" are available online.

I personally have profited from the above mentioned information as PART
of the reference material I use for Laboratory Work. Many people have.
There is a lot of potential for further development and education.


Wed Mar 27 09:16:09 1996
Subject: 0538 alchemical music

From: Josh
Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 14:14:40 -0800


Hello Patrice,

>>I am a music composer and I am very interested in alchemical studies. So,I
>>need some information about music in alchemy.



>I recommend the next book regarding alchemical music and mystical music.
>
> Joscelyn Godwin
>
> HARMONIES OF HEAVEN AND EARTH
> The spiritual dimension of music from antiquity to the avant-garde
> (1987, THAMES AND HUDSON LTD., LONDON)



Yes, and "Atalanta Fugiens" (which Joshua Geller earlier mentioned) is also
available in a paperback edition edited by Godwin; you can even send away
for a cassette of the music written by Maier. I haven't heard it -- would
love to.

/jcs


Wed Mar 27 09:16:21 1996
Subject: 0539 alchemical music

From: John Obrien
Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 17:51:08 -0600 (CST)


> >it possible to make alchemical music? Are there musician alchemists? Is there
> >music in the alchemical repertoire?
>
> I recommend the next book regarding alchemical music and mystical music.
> HARMONIES OF HEAVEN AND EARTH
> The spiritual dimension of music from antiquity to the avant-garde
> (1987, THAMES AND HUDSON LTD., LONDON)
> Shinmei Suzuki

In addition to what has been already reported, I'm reminded of the attempts
of creating music by sustituting musical notes for human genome sequences.

I'm told some of the results are quite striking, and that some resemble
music written by some very famous classical composers. Mozart for
example, but he's not the only one.

--
,o888b,`?~~~~~ ~~~~~P',d888o,
,8888 888 ?~~~ John D. O'Brien obriens@sound.net ~~~P 888 8888,
8888888P' ~~~ ~~~ ?8888888
888P' ~~~ "When all the World recognizes ~~~ `?888
`88 O d~~~ good as good, This in itself ~~~b O 88'
`?._ _.o~~~~~ is Evil." Lao Tsu ~~~~~o._ _.P'


Wed Mar 27 09:17:10 1996
Subject: 0540 advice on LPN

From: Pat Zalewski
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 96 13:02 NZST


Roy

I have a copy of their lessons covering the plant theory. They do excellent
work. I cannot praise them high enough. They only suggestion I would make is
get a 2000 ml. retort made up ( and recepticle) as this will double for any
distillation train and is a lot easier to work with. Especially when trying
to distil alcohol. Witha retort you do not need water flowing all the time
trying to cool things down.

Pat zalewski


Wed Mar 27 09:17:19 1996
Subject: 0541 What is Magic?

From: KEEPERH2O@aol.com
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 01:12:28 -0500


Dear Paul,

You are no doubt right about our points of view reflecting our own experience
and resources. I found your response to the issues I raised measured,
responsible, and for the most part inarguable, because I respect your
perspective. It would probably be better to shave the hairs (enough,
assuredly, to share with some bald spots) over espresso at a downtown cafe.
Do you ever get to Portland, Oregon? Chuckles.

I will, however, take a moment to explain my approach to "permission". Yes,
I've had some experience in my younger days "storming the Gates of Heaven",
if you will, and was actually surprised when I found they could be breached!
This "permission" thing is not any tacit agreement on my part that I haven't
the right to do what I will without an appeal to deity. I don't see it that
way. It begins more with a sense of humility (and acumen) before the august
and mysterious Nature surrounding me. A lot of what I do is outdoors. I
talk to the spirit/s there. I talk to the mountains. I tell them I am here.
And you know? They answer! They answer in the "predictable" way, too.
And, when they do a significant "base" is covered. Far from a "touchy
feely" power, a potentially dangerous adversary is, at minimum, met and
calmed with agreement, and, maximally, I'm stronger because I am not acting
alone. Furthermore, when I know I am being observed. I cannot think of a
better "yoga" to keep it true, sharp and to the point.

Love & Light!

Keeper


Wed Mar 27 09:34:37 1996
Subject: Alchemy Web site

I wonder if some of the Forum members could give me some feedback on my Alchemy Web site:

http:///www.colloquium.co.uk/alchemy/

Not regarding the content - but regarding speed of access, unavailability of the site or delays in finding pages, and any technical problems encountered when browsing the site. I will not repost these messages onto the alchemy forum, but I need some information about how easy it is to use this site, and any technical problems.


With my best wishes


Adam McLean


Wed Mar 27 20:14:50 1996
Subject: 0542 alchemical music

From: Anthony McCormick
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 19:06:03 +1000 (EST)


to patrice coulombe,
to quote "division is sin" i find your question interesting.
a book that i return to after various periods that may be of assistance, the
pythagorean plato-prelude to the song itself by ernest g. mcclain

yours sincerely stephen huckerby





>From: Coulombe Patrice

> I am a music composer and I am very interested in alchemical studies.
>So,I need some information about music in alchemy. Is there alchemical
>music as there are alchemical books? Are you aware of examples of music
>which explain by allegories or by musical techniques the steps of the
>alchemical process? Is it possible to make alchemical music? Are there
musician
>alchemists? Is there music in the alchemical repertoire?
>
> If someone has some interesting information for me (books,
>references,) please send it to me by the forum or by a private e-mail.
>
> Sincerely and fraternally
> Patrice Coulombe (coulomp@ere.umontreal.ca)
> Quebec,Canada


Wed Mar 27 20:15:02 1996
Subject: 0543 advice on LPN

From: Jfruther
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 04:23:40 -0500


Dear Roy,

for further information upon the course, see the web-page of the Philosophers
of Nature.
I already work with this material and suggest it as very good.

For further information mail me.

Jfruther@aol.com

Yours...


Wed Mar 27 20:15:12 1996
Subject: 0544 alchemical music

From: Jason Johns
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 04:09:33 PST



> In addition to what has been already reported, I'm reminded of the attempts
> of creating music by sustituting musical notes for human genome sequences.

> I'm told some of the results are quite striking, and that some resemble
> music written by some very famous classical composers. Mozart for
> example, but he's not the only one.


This is extremely intriguing.

Does anyone have any further details of this project or who I can contact
regarding it?

Thanks

Jason
[Jason_Johns.RXUK@eur.xerox.com]


Wed Mar 27 20:15:20 1996
Subject: 0545 Books search !!

From: Pavel Korensky
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 12:00:10 +0100 (GMT+0100)


Please, can anybody help me with the following problem ?

I would like to have the copies of the following books:

????? Epistola de Igne Philosophorum
Pontanus De Lapide Philosophico
Gerad de Cremone Geomancie
Claudius Popelin Les Trois Livres de l'Art du Potier

Please, can anybody help me with the information where is possible to find these
books ? Some contacts to libaries, publishing houses e


Thank you for any help

Best regards

Pavel Korensky


Wed Mar 27 20:15:29 1996
Subject: 0546 What is magic?

From: Petra Gottlieb
Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 00:13:45 GMT


I just like to add to Jason's

>> Every action you take should be a conscious choice!<<

Yes, because in unconsciousness lies ir-respons-ibility. That means in
being unconscious one has not developed the ability to calculate in the
consequences of one's choice. But with a conscious choice of eating
chocolate one knows the detriment if eating it in excess, namely that all
energy not used adds to the circumference of one's physical stature, and
makes up one's mind accordingly to the effect of either - or.

So, generally speaking. Man's FREE WILL only lies in the FREEDOM OF CHOICE
that he has with every minute, every second of his life. The CONSEQUENCES ,
however , (good or bad depending on his choice) lies outside his power. They
come rolling at him in accordance to THE COSMIC LAW OF RECIPROCAL ACTION =
CAUSE AND EFFECT, THE LAW OF REPERCUSSION.

In the Old Testament this same Law is described as: AN EYE FOR AN EYE -
A TOOTH FOR A TOOTH, which man erroneously interpreted that he can take
revenge in his own hand, disregarding the command: VENGEANCE IS MINE ! says
the Lord (because it is embedded in HIS ETERNAL AND IMMUTABLE COSMIC LAW! It
takes effect by itself without the interference of man. Herein also lies THE
JUSTICE OF GOD!).

In the New Testament this same Law is described as : WHAT A MAN SOWS HE MUST
REAP. If one sows wheat one can't reap barley. Likewise it is with our
thoughts, words and deeds. They are like seeds, and the harvest is according
to what we have sown. Violence for violence, murder for murder, but thank
heavens also, kindness for kindness, and love for love.
---
Petra Christiane Gottlieb
petrag@iaccess.com.au
---
WO KEIN LIEB, DA IST KEIN KUNST! (Paracelsus)
WITHOUT LOVE THERE IS NO ART!


Wed Mar 27 20:15:38 1996
Subject: 0547 alchemical music

From: Richard Kahn and Tiffany Winne
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 08:58:04 +0000


> From: chaslin
> Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 22:57:09 +0100
>
> >From: Coulombe Patrice=20
> >Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 19:43:45 -0500 (EST)
> >
> >
> > I am a music composer and I am very interested in alchemical studies.
> >So,I need some information about music in alchemy.
>
> I would suggest you to study the texts of Wagner's Ring. The tetralogie is
> full of alchemical allegories. (the conquest of gold, the fire, the language
> of birds, and so on...)
> Wagner was initiated in diverses secret societies, but was probabely not
> directly an alchemist. Music is an aspect of the process wich leads to the
> stone, but applicated to an other matter. The real genius, the real
> inspiration is a sort of stone, and Mozart or Bach could be considered like
> high gradueted Adepts, like accomplished alchemists in their domain.
> I am a musician also, but I study Alchemy as a specific matter, I don't try
> to connect it more than the nature already connected things together.=
> Sincerly,
> Frederic


I'm surprised that no one's mentioned it. But Beethoven's entire
symphonic structure should obviously be heard in this regard as well...the
represent an alchemical dialectic with the odd and even numbered ones each
representing differing principles which must be cross-pollenated and
bathed in each other. The symphonic structure is the macrocosm. As
regards the microcosm, look to the classic 5th. Fate knocking on the door
has nothing to do with it. This is pure alchemy of the microcosm. Listen
for the dialectic, and so many secrets will be revealed.
Again, the symphonies as a whole represented Beethoven's attempt at
divine language; and in this light, the 5th is the ultimate music of
human-kind because it represents humanity in the cycle. It is the music
of microcosm, but Adamic microcosm (filled with tragedy perhaps but also
retaining the shape and structure of the divine).

I realize that the original poster was probably looking for something more
along the lines of Atalanta Fugiens...something which proclaims itself as
"alchemical" in nature. But all of us who practice know that the "truth
which hides" is far more subtle and sublime an elixir...I've let the cat out
of the bag. Now can you catch him...buy those symphonies!

Peace in craft,
Richard Kahn
--
______________________________________________
Richard and Tiffany (richard @user1.channel1.com)
HTTP://www.channel1.com/users/richard
"The Truth is not always beautiful, nor Beauty truthful."---Lao Tze
"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people
some of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the
time."---Abraham Lincoln
"Pass the Gin..."---I said that.
_____________________________________________


Wed Mar 27 20:38:30 1996
Subject: 0548 alchemical music

From: John C. Merritt
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 13:12:26 -0600 (CST)



On Wed, 27 Mar 1996, Alchemy forum wrote:

> From: chaslin
> Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 22:57:09 +0100
>
>
> >From: Coulombe Patrice=20
> >Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 19:43:45 -0500 (EST)
> >
> >
> > I am a music composer and I am very interested in alchemical studies.
> >So,I need some information about music in alchemy.
>
> I would suggest you to study the texts of Wagner's Ring. The tetralogie is
> full of alchemical allegories. (the conquest of gold, the fire, the language
> of birds, and so on...)

I'll second this suggestion, and add _Parsifal_, but, as Nietzsche
pointed out in _The Case of Wagner_, most of Wagner's operas from _The
Flying Dutchman_ on deal with redemption of some sort or another, and so
might symbolically parallel the Opus. The apparent exception is _Der
Meistersinger_, but that one might count also, depending on how you look
at it.

> Wagner was initiated in diverses secret societies, but was probabely not
> directly an alchemist.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I, for one, would like to see some serious documentation on this claim of
Wagner's belonging to an initiatory group. Mozart's affiliations with
Austrian Freemasonry is well documented by his biographers, but I havent
seen this claim for Wagner made outside the occult literature. Im not
necessarily not believing you on this, but a reference to a reputable
biography of Wagner would be appreciated.

>
> Music is an aspect of the process wich leads to the
> stone, but applicated to an other matter.
> ......
>
> Sincerly,
> Frederic
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

This is very true, though not appreciated by those who are focused on the
lab work. See Meyer's _Atalanta Fugens_ for the classical example of
alchemical music. The recording of this, by the way, is very beautiful and
well worth the price.


----------| John Merritt | beowulf@bga.com |---------


Thu Mar 28 09:25:56 1996
Subject: 0549 advice on LPN

From:Russ House
Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 00:39:40 -0500


Roy,

As an officer of The Philosophers of Nature, it was tremendously gratifying
to see that you received responses from 3 continents regarding your inquiry.

My involvement with the P.O.N. dates from 1986. The association and its
teachings are not perfect, but they are evolving, and serve a rather
specific need honorably. It is certain that the P.O.N. can offer support
and resources to those seeking to study Alchemy and Qabala in a
'more-than-academic' way. The theory and practice are developed together in
the correspondence courses,which get into some depth about the subject
matter rather quickly.

I suggest that you spend some time at the P.O.N. web site:
http://www.mcs.net/~alchemy/

Here there are some new additions, including a list of frequently asked
questions, as well as information about our next major seminar to be held in
Colorado. While our correspondence courses are the primary means of
instruction, the various seminars have helped to add a dimension to them. I
recall fondly the first U.S. seminar when there were more than 80 people in
my back yard, with 3 large propane-fed gas furnaces being used to make
regulus of antimony. It was a bit of a conversation piece for the
neighbors. Since then we have rented an entire Girl Scout camp in the area
for two of the annual seminars.

We are considering some new video productions and eventual CD-ROM
educational tools, as well as the necessity of doing more traveling to
provide classes for members and those with interest in these topics.

In the past our service levels were not the best (it is a volunteer
organization), but we have made significant improvements, and consider them
to be only a start.

This Alchemy Forum is a blessing for all of us, and I hope that no one will
consider my response to be inappropriate 'commercialization'.

With regards,

Russ House,
Vice-President,
The Philosophers of Nature, Inc.

> I've recently become determined to learn more about alchemy and
>hermetic philosophy in a more-than-academic way, but I'm not sure where to
>turn for advice. An organization called The Philosophers of Nature offers
>what seems to be a 'correspondence course' in basic theory and practice. If
>anyone has had experience with them, I'd appreciate their opinion or a
>description of their experience; reply privately or in this forum.
>
> Thank you,
>
> Roy Liuzza
> rliuzza@mailhost.tcs.tulane.edu
====================================
Courses in Alchemy * Qabala * Esoteric Studies
The Philosophers of Nature
http://www.mcs.net/~alchemy/ email: alchemy@mcs.com
====================================
"Thou, Nature, art my Goddess. To thy law my services are bound."
-- Shakespeare (King Lear)


Thu Mar 28 09:36:07 1996
Subject: Alchemy forum digest

I wish to announce a new feature of the alchemy forum.

It is now possible to receive the alchemy forum mail in one large digest (gathering together 10 or 12 posts) sent out about every two days, instead of the individual messages.

Of course, you will be a day or so behind the others on the forum, but this method of receiving the forum posts in large chunks may suit some users.

If you want tor receive the digests instead of the normal individual postings then contact me at

alchemypost@colloquium.co.uk
or
alchemy@zz.com

and I will set this up for you within a few days.

With my best wishes,


Adam McLean


Thu Mar 28 10:16:29 1996
Subject: 0550 Books Search - John Pontanus

Pavel Korensky asks about works of John Pontanus. I attach a list of the relevant books. The 'Philosophical Epistle' is very short and I will endeavour to find the time to copy this out and place it on to the Web site, hopefully in a day or so. The 'Philosophical Epistle' was often quoted in 17th century alchemical books, and seems to have had a special interest to English authors.


Adam McLean

--------------------------------------
Bernard Georges PENOT [1530-1620].
Apologia. Bernardi G. Penoti, a Portu S. Mariæ Aquitani in duas partes divisa ad Iosephi Michelii Middelburgensis Medici scriptum, quo Bern. P. a Portu Aquitani sententiam de pseudo temporistis, in præfatione Dialogi inter Naturam et Filium Philosophiæ expositam turpi inscitia et calumnia impudenti invertit. Cui sequentia opuscula adjuncta sunt: De Physici Lapidis Materia, et quibus signis dignoscatur. Item de Multiplici Igne Lapidis. Frankfurt, 1600.
[Item 3. Axiomate Physica ex gravissimorum Philosophorum Libris eruta, quibus adiuncta est epistola summi philosophi Ioannis Pontani de lapide philosophorum, in qua non solum de materia lapidis agitur, verum etiam de igne physicorum, quo mediante, totum opus perficitur. Et Epistola Bernardi Penoti a Portu, ad D. Andream Libavium et Librorum ab auctore editorum Catalogus.]

Theatrum Chemicum...Ursel, 1602.
Vol. III p734. Joannes Pontanus. Epistola in qua de lapide quem Philosophorum vocant, agitur.

George RIPLEY.
Opuscula quædam chemica. Georgii Riplei Medulla philosophiæ chemicæ. Incerti autoris Canones decem, mysterium artis mira brevitate et perspicuitate comprehendentes. Heliæ Monachi Franciscani Speculum alchymiæ. Ioan. Aurelii Augurelli Chrysopoeiæ compendium paraphrasticum. Artefi Clavis maioris sapientiæ. Ioan. Pontani Epistola de lapide philosophorum. Galli Etschenreuteri medici Epistola ad Guilielmum Gratarolum. Omnia partim ex veteribus manuscriptis eruta, partim restituta. Frankfurt, 1614.

Nicolas FLAMEL.
His Exposition of the Hieroglyphicall Figures which he caused to bee painted upon an Arch in St. Innocents Church-yard, in Paris. Together with The secret Booke of Artephius, And The Epistle of John Pontanus: Concerning both the Theoricke and the Practicke of the Philosophers Stone. Faithfully, and (as the Maiesty of the thing requireth) done into English out of the French and Latine copies. By Eirenæus Orandus, qui est, Vera veris enodans... London, 1624.

Michael SENDIVOGIUS.
Lumen chymicum novum XII Tractatibus divissum... Erfurt, 1624.
[Item 5. Epistola Joannis Pontani, in qua de lapide, quem Philosophorum vocant, agitur.]

John FRENCH.
The Art of Distillation... London, 1651.

Theatrum Chemicum...Strassburg, 1659.
Vol. V. p487. Epistola Joannis Pontani in qua de Lapide quem Philosophorum vocant agitur.

Raphael EGLINUS [Nicolaus Niger Hapelius]
Cheiragogia Heliana. A manuduction to the philosopher's magical gold... To which is added; <'Antron MitraV >, Zoroaster's cave; or, an intellectuall echo, &c. Together with the famous Catholic epistle of John Pontanus upon the minerall fire. By Geo. Thor. Astromagus. London, 1659.

George THOR.
An easie introduction to the philosophers magical gold. To which is added, Zorasters cave; as also John Pontanus Epistle upon the mineral fire; otherwise called, the philosophers stone. By Geor. Thor, Astromagus. London, 1667

Sir Kenelm DIGBY.
Chymical Secrets, and rare experiments in Physick and Philosophy, with figures Collected and Experimented, by the Honourable and Learned Sir Kenelm Digby, Chancellor to the late Queen-Mother of England. Containing, Many Rare and Unheard of Medicines, Mentruums, and Alkahests; the Philosophical Arcanum of Flamel Artefius, Pontanus and Zachary, with the True Secret of Volatilizing the fixed Salt of Tartar. Published since his Death, by George Hartman Chymist, and Steward to the aforementioned Sir Kenelm. London, 1683.

Matthäus ERBINÄUS von BRANDAU.
XII. Grund-Säulen der Natur und Kunst, worauf die Verwandelung der Metallen gebauet, benebst V. vornehmer Artisten wahrhafften Processen, worunter einer des Th. Paracelsi, welcher noch niemahlen in Druck gesehen worden... Herrn Autoris, ob zwar etwas unleserlichen Manuscripto nebst einer, kurtzen Beschreibung Johannis Pontani secreten philosophischen Feuers auf Begehren unterschiedener vornehmen Leute zum Druck befördert von einem Grossen Liebhaber des Theophrasti Paracelsi. Leipzig, 1689.

Cleidophorus MYSTAGOGUS, pseud.
Mercury's Caducean rod: or, the great and wonderful office of the universal mercury, or God's vicegerent, displayed... To which is added a general epistle, discovering the mysterious fire of Pontanus. The second edition. London, 1704

Alchymistisch Sieben-Gestirn, das ist: Sieben schöne und außerlesene Tractätlein vom Stein der Weisen, darinn der richtige Weg zu solchem aller höchsten Geheimuß zu kommen hell und klar gezeiget wird... Aus dem Latein ins Hochdeutsche treulich übergesetzet. Hamburg, 1675 [Also Frankfurt, 1772]
[Item 7. Pontanus, Ein Sendbrief.]